Forum for Recognizing an Eye

Recommend altering this page's info... [#2036]

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121.222.147.79: Recommend altering this page's info... (2009-11-13 16:11) [#6548]

The subject of recognizing false eyes is of upmost importance for this page. However, the definition of false eyes is still not as descriptive as it can be. Whenever I find myself teaching beginners the rules, I try to refer to the fact that for stones to live, they will need to be able connect to a living shape. (Which gives the notion that a false eye occurs when that particular space needs to be filled so the surrounding stones can connect.

If you wish to understand my pedantic nature, please observe the following:

[Diagram]
All groups are alive! (Not a through seki nor lack of liberties)  

Only the marked White stones are traditionally alive here. The empty square spaces are what seem to be false eyes... but still, groups can rely on them for life (when demostrating the principle of stone connection)
This note is not only to attempt a change to this page -- but also a change in thinking of our basic definitions all over SL! - C0nfuseki

X
HermanHiddema: Re: Recommend altering this page's info... (2009-11-13 17:49) [#6549]

The page as is tries to give a definition that is reasonable and simple, even though it is not fully correct. The idea is that this information is sufficient to give beginners what they need. Any player that has passed a certain strength (say 20 kyu) is sufficiently aware of what an eye is to not need this page anymore.

For those that are interested in more formal definitions, as you are, we have the Formal Definitions of Eye page.

Unkx80: Re: Recommend altering this page's info... (2009-11-13 18:12) [#6550]

You see, people like Robert will say that only his definitions are correct. I'm fine with that. But how would you explain his definitions, in conjunction with his Japanese 2003 rules, to a newcomer in Go in a couple of minutes?

Besides, what you show are what is known as false eye life...

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99.191.109.169: ((no subject)) (2011-07-20 19:51) [#8632]

symplicity: I think that the "A more accurate alternative" should be used as the main definition, or at least featured far more prominently.

The current explanation, requiring solid connection, is wrong for every basic living group (requiring minimum stones to live in the corner, side, center), and is misleading in a vast number of common situations.

When teaching beginners, I use the "more accurate alternative" as the definition from the beginning, using examples like these to illustrate:

[Diagram]
 

a is real because white cannot play at the corner point b. b is real because white cannot play at three out of four of the corner points around b (white only has one out of four). The solid connection definition gets this group wrong.

[Diagram]
 

Once they understand this, I extend on it a little by give examples like this. a is real because white "cannot play" at b, because black will capture it. It's almost always a easy jump for beginners from "cannot play at all" to "cannot play without simply losing your stone", and while it fails occasionally with stuff like double snapback, it's correct for almost all basic situations. Beginners I have taught this way have also been quick to grasp that once white plays at c, black needs to play at b to defend the eye, because after c, now white *can* play b.

The solid connection definition does actually work here, because black can play b no matter what white does. But "black can play b no matter what white does" suggests to a beginner that he needs to check many possibilities and requires a reading depth of 2-4 (up to 4 when white plays at b himself). Also, beginners might iniitally not consider the possibility that they can get b no matter what, leading them to actually play b before white has threatened anything.

By constrast, the "white cannot play" definition suggests that black need only check a single thing - that white can play b successfully. I've found in practice that the "white cannot play" definition is actually conceptually easier to apply for beginners in these cases.

Thoughts?

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JoelR: two cents (2011-07-22 05:30) [#8638]

I agree with symplicity. The "A more accurate alternative" is a fine working definition. It is what I want to point people to, and is clearer than either the first thing on the page or on the FalseEye page.

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85.255.234.126: Comparing with false eyes (2014-03-01 18:43) [#9972]

The problem with many of the examples of so-called eyes on this page is they are no different from the very first example of a false eye given here: [ext] http://senseis.xmp.net/?FalseEye

That is, they can be surrounded exactly as the false eye can. The 'eyes' could therefore be considered as potential eyes but not as eyes (as they stand).

 
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