Forum for Sente

Special use of the term in life and death problems [#16150]

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xela: Special use of the term in life and death problems (2025-03-09 06:29) [#12554]

There's a few pages on this site with commentary along the following lines (this particular example adapted from Two-space notchers not fully connected):

[Diagram]
White to play and kill  

W1 is a tesuji, followed by the atari at W3 which destroys an eye in sente, and then W5 destroys another eye.

Now of course W3 is not sente in the context of a real game. As soon as W1 appears on the board, black should know that the group is dead and should tenuki: both B2 and B4 are wasted ko threats.

But in the context of understanding the solution of a life and death problem, you might consider W3 to be a kind of "local sente": if white were to play a as well, then the black stones are obviously dead, while B4 in the diagram keeps the group unsettled and forces white to find the killing move at W5.

An anonymous user has been editing these comments to say things like:

W1 is a tesuji, followed by the atari at W3 which destroys an eye in gote, and then W5 destroys another eye.

This is technically correct: W3 isn't sente, so of course it's gote. But it's confusing: why would you say "gote ... and then ..." I imagine a beginner trying to make sense of this: why did black reply to the gote move?

Personally I'm OK using "sente" with this local meaning. But if people want to remove the word sente, I'd be much more comfortable rewriting it to completely avoid the sente/gote issue:

W1 is a tesuji, followed by the atari at W3 which destroys an eye, and if black plays B4 then W5 destroys another eye.

X
2605:8d80:0581:a1f1: Re: Special use of the term in life and death problems (2025-03-15 03:58) [#12564]

I don't mind avoiding initiative in life and death problems.

I didn't delete the passage outright because it seemed...rude. Changing it felt more subtle and polite. I mean, the authors obviously wanted to make a point about initiative and stuff, and I didn't want to take that away.

Sente is a pretty basic concept...right? Surely, this wouldn't confuse anyone! I even kept the brackets so beginners can still click...

Four in the one and only diagram so far doesn't actually "keep" the group unsettled. It makes the group unsettled, because Black was dead after Three. If Black's dead, Black is also going to be unresponsive!

Define "local sente".

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xela: ((no subject)) (2025-03-16 00:39) [#12565]

To see how much confusion there is amongst beginners, spend a bit of time at [ext] https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/ :-)

You're correct, my use of the word "keep" is not accurate.

I won't reply to the other points right away: I'll wait a few days and see if anyone else has an opinion. Thanks for the discussion, and for your contributions to the library.

 
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