Forum for Force (Mathematics)

pass-force: examples? [#1609]

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xela: pass-force: examples? (2008-11-03 10:15) [#5230]

Is "pass-force" a generalisation of "play-force"? That is, if a player can play-force a condition C, is it necessarily true that the same player can also pass-force C by using the same strategy with a pass appended to each variation? If not, can you show a counter-example?

Can you give an example where a condition can be pass-forced but not play-forced?

I realise that I am being demanding here, but it is much easier to understand technical definitions if many examples are provided :-)

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RobertJasiek: Re: pass-force: examples? (2008-11-03 10:29) [#5231]

"pass-force" is not a generalization of "play-force" because a pass-forcing player's first move might be a pass. (Note: Under rules with 3 ending passes, of course.)

For examples of application of play-force and pass-force, see the semi-stable ko definitions and the examples for molasses ko in [ext] Types of Basic Ko.

Copy molasses ko examples from there to here, if you like.

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xela: ((no subject)) (2008-11-03 10:42) [#5232]

Thanks, this answers half of my question very well. The molasses ko examples do include situations in which black can pass-force a condition but not play-force the same condition.

Now what I am looking for is an example of a position in which black can play-force some condition but can not pass-force the same condition; or else a proof that such an example can not exist.

(Perhaps my use of the word "generalisation" was misleading or even incorrect. My apologies for any confusion.)

 
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