xela: Discussion of Xuanxuan Qijing Problem 3 (2024-09-23 11:43) [#12505]

Discussion moved from Xuanxuan Qijing Problem 3. Further comments welcome.

This conversation started with the edit summary "The modern fad of shitsudai should go the same way as the modern fad of twerking"!

JohnF I think SL really needs to get away from the obsession with shitsudai. The true likely explanation here is that the problem shown is not the problem meant. It is all but certain that it was a misprint (or a faded copy or whatever), with a 3-3 stone omitted here (i.e. it is White to play and live). The correct version of the problem is known from other ancient texts such as the Wood section of the Xianji Wuku. Misprints or other printing flaws are fairly common in the old texts and often could not easily be rectified in the woodcut age, not to mention that many old texts survive only in pirated and poor-quality copies made by people with next to no knowledge of go. Slapping the term shitsudai all over the place gives a totally false impression of the skill of ancient players and of the value of their books.

xela: I can see both sides here. We have a mixed audience on SL: some people will be browsing these problems for historical interest and to learn more about the culture, while others will be trying to solve them. We should be able to find a middle ground of documenting the pitfalls for the latter group without sounding snarky.

I note that this problem appears in Encyclopedia of Classical Go Problems volume 1, number 70, in this exact form, with the caption "Black to play, White lives. Note the odd requirement for White to live." :-)

Thanks for the extra context. Perhaps we should leave the thoughts about an omitted stone on this page but move the broader discussion over to https://senseis.xmp.net/?forum=Shitsudai ?

JohnF I don't think it is a question of finding a middle ground, and it is certainly not a case of historical/cultural problems versus practical problems. It is a matter of respecting all kinds of problems for what they are. Go is a game of co-existence. Old problems co-exist with new ones - many are re-hashed over and over again in modern collections because they have stood the test of time and because their differences stimulate interest. The old collections happen to include problems that look exactly like modern problems but they happen to include also two different kinds of status problems, puzzles, thematic problems, "topic of conversation" problems (I talk about these more fully in Volume 2 of my encyclopaedia) and, yes, defective problems (defective not only because they may have been misprinted or whatever, but because alternative solutions have been missed). But, guess what, modern problem devisers are producing all these kinds of problems even today. There is diversity in tsumego. It should be celebrated. All we need to do is describe what kind of problems are being presented or what kind of readership they are aimed at - no more. We should not be sticking rude labels on them saying FAILURE (which is what shitsudai means) when they are merely different. Is Stravinsky a failure because he didn't write like Mozart? Do some people like Mozart and hate Stravinsky? Yes. Do some people like Stravinsky and hate Mozart? Yes. Do some hate both? Yes. Do some people love both? Yes. Do some people not care one jot? Yes. That is what the tsumego world of go "composition", which spans over a millennium, should be like.

Malcolm: ((no subject)) (2024-09-23 16:28) [#12507]

It's still unsatisfactory for me. I would prefer no indication about the status of the tsumego to appear on the page giving the problem. In this specific case, the main page could simply say What is the status of this group?

I have a suggestion - a way we can perhaps make everyone happy - or less unhappy. I suggest we explicitly say that some collections of classical problems have a few shitsudai in themm and that on SL we don't mention this on the main page of individual problems. This comment can go on Tsumego Conventions and Shitsudai. We could also put a general comment to this effect on the main page of each classical problem collection - pages like xuanxuanQijing.