Forum for Estimating The Score

Practice? [#1164]

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LukeNine45: Practice? (2007-10-15 18:59) [#3949]

What if...

We practice all sorts of things in go, but I've never seen practice drills for counting.

Suppose we make a few pages with a dozen or so finished 9x9 games (including komi and prisoners), with the following instructions:

1. Estimate the score after one glance (e.g. W+5, B+5, too close to call)

2. Count the position in your head.

3. Look at the answer.

4. Recount until you convince yourself the answer is right.

We could also make a page with 13x13 games and 19x19 games.

Does this sound like a good idea?

Jeff: Practice? (2007-10-15 21:10) [#3950]

That'd be sweet. If one who can count 19x19 perfectly at a glance, I expect he'd be mislead on 17x17 because he'll undervalue the territory near the edge. That said, maybe it's best to only include 19x19 in the training set.

Also, some games are much easier to count than others. Perhaps have increasing difficulty levels. Some endgame positions require much reading to discern which groups are dead. But having to read these large kills distracts from the goal of practicing counting (esp. counting at a glance). But this reading is not required in our games -- we are intimately familiar with the life/death status of every group already.

Also, in pro games, there are often many empty points (technically dame, but they don't look like textbook examples of dame), which don't show up in the endgame of 10k games.

So maybe it'd be best to explicitly mark dead groups. And maybe it'd be best to make three difficulty levels. At 20k, the games should include large uninvaded moyos. 10k boards should look kind of reasonable, with some dead groups in places where a 10k might lose a group due to carelessness or poor reading. The 1d boards should look more like professional games.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

LukeNine45: ((no subject)) (2007-10-15 21:36) [#3952]

I was thinking 9x9 is good to start off with because it's something anyone should be able to count (not estimate) in their head in a small amount of time. Once you can do that easily, my theory is it'll be easier to count (not estimate) on a 19x19.

Difficulty levels sound like a great idea.

And I agree that non-obvious dead stones should be marked, at least in the easier ones.

Anyone else?

KGS is probably a good source of 19x19 games at different levels...

Jeff: Re: Counting ambiguous (2007-10-18 22:54) [#3960]

[ext] This game is an example of games that I can't count, no matter how hard I try. Here is the end position:

Black wins by 4.5  

Kowi was 5.5. Black had 7 captures. White had 3 captures. To me, this game looks unfinished. The score depends on who plays at the marked point. If Black plays there, white responds above marked point, and black wins by 5.5. If White plays there, the black needs not respond, and black wins by 4.5. But the game is marked complete, B+4.5!

If I can't properly count a "finished game", how do I count an unfinished game?

edgy: Re: Counting ambiguous (2007-10-19 00:33) [#3962]

White always has to play above the marked point; when he loses his outside liberties, the lower string will be in atari.

Also, Black has a cutting point in the lower left he will need to defend when his lower left group loses its liberties.

Jeff: Re: Counting ambiguous (2007-10-19 16:55) [#3963]

Thanks, Edgy!

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