Forum for Go Terms
To propose a new go term: Schrodinger's Cat [#13672]
Hi all,
I am not sure if I can propose a new go term, here's the post where I explained the reason and have given an example:
![[ext]](images/extlink.gif)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/go.igo.weiqi.baduk/posts/10161022729271514/
It seems most people found it make sense, but I am not sure how to do it.
I also have the following translations with pronunciations available:
Japanese: シュレディンガーの猫 (Shuredingā no neko) Korean: 슈뢰딩거의 고양이 (Syureoding-geo-ui goyang-i) Traditional Chinese: 薛丁格的貓 (Xuē dīng gé de māo) Simplified Chinese: 薛定谔的猫 (Xuē dìng è de māo)
Your comments or advices are highly appreciated.
Dino
I think there is a better, simpler term in English for this: unsettled. As in, an unsettled group.
Thanks for your comments.
When you bring up "unsettled", I think you mean the first meaning from below:
1. In life and death, a group is unsettled when its status depends on the player who gets to play first. 2. In the middle game, a group is unsettled when it is weak and lacking eyeshape. This is in contrast to strong and settled groups.
I would argue that a Schrondinger's cat is more specific in that both players "intentionally" to not settle the group for the better good, so Schrodinger's cat is a much more specific case of "unsettled", maybe only 0.01% of unsettled groups become Schrondinger's cats, and when we say "unsettled", we don't take "intentionality" into consideration.
For example, a Ten Thousand Year ko is also a ko, but it is much more specific than a general ko.
My impression is that it's relatively common for a group to be left unsettled for some time (i.e. more than 10 moves), on purpose, during the middle game. For instance, an unsettled corner group that through one move can become either alive, or a ko. But I don't have any specific examples in mind from actual games. Can anyone think of some games like that?
Regarding the Ke Jie / alphago example you gave, I would just describe it as an unsettled position. A very large one, that probably will be left to be resolved in the yose phase. Also, as it "just" involves two chains of different colours, it seems like a bit of a stretch to talk about two groups.
My opinion: it's not immediately clear that your term carries a meaning of intentionality. It's a term that sounds nice, but doesn't bring us anything more than the existing term (unsettled). Also, as mentioned by xela, in physics Schrödinger's cat refers to being both alive and dead at the same time - it's not a notion applicable to Go.
If we wanted to talk about intentionality, we could say something like "left unsettled on purpose".
In conclusion, I don't think this term is likely to be adopted. Sorry.
Still, looking at positions where both players will choose not to resolve the position immediately is indeed interesting.
Interesting idea. If it's so subtle, then you need to show quite a few more examples to make clear the difference between Schrödinger's Cats and an "ordinary" unsettled group.
(I'm also not convinced it's the best metaphor, even though it's cute. Schrödinger's cat isn't "neither alive nor dead", it's both at the same time.)
Example #2, this is the famous "Kejie-Alphago joseki" (anyone can tell me how to show all of the 22 moves?), both the 3 black stones and the 4 white stones are Schrondinger's cats, of course, black can kill white immediately by cutting, but it's a 20-points-gote yose only (not big enough); moreover, there are still some ajis to leverage later, so both sides tenuki and it ends up with 2 Schrondinger's cats.
![[Diagram]](diagrams/43/7ee03f30fef14595747d583d61a0fa19.png)
Do you have a link to the game this comes from?
Do you mean this game?
Game info Event The Future of Go Summit, Match 2 Black AlphaGo (9 Dan) White Ke Jie (9 Dan) Komi 7.5 Result B+R
https://www.alphago-games.com/view/eventname/wuzhen/game/1/move/50
Example #3, see the game (a fox game of 9d vs. 9d) at position 55:
(see the game here: https://www.101weiqi.com/chessbook/mychess/7495331/)
See the diagram below A = H16, B = P8, C = B-17
(see the diagram also here: https://imgur.com/a/kZOfNyf)
While can play at C to live the upper-left corner, but since it is not big enough, it is more urgent for white to play A to detroy black's center moyo or play B to rectify the white groups at the right side; if both players tenuki the upper-left cornder group, then that group is a Scrodinger's cat.
![[Diagram]](diagrams/2/2057ecdeb909e27f58fb43cbbaf6864f.png)
This is not really what dino1019 meant, but it is related. We can consider two enemy groups that are, each separately, unsettled, but together, they are miai. Their status does not really depend on who moves first. So, in this case, we can say they are miau. Especially if they have good shape.
![[Diagram]](diagrams/37/5d52e07acae5e60c377e87ca0f2efe0e.png)
Where there's a miai after my move, I have secured one of the miai moves (with about equal values), if the miai still exists at my turn, I can postpone playing miai moves and play other big move (possibly the 3rd biggest after the two miai moves) first.
I'd like to mention if a group of useless stones (refer to my local theory of relativity) are atari'ed, and both players tenuki this group because it is too small; by definition, this is also a Scrodinger's cat, but it is too small to honor the Great Cat, so I prefer to call it "the flea on the cat" instead.
OK, I think I'm starting to get it.
When I ask for examples: we need something that's an example of a Cat, and also something that isn't a Cat, so we can see the difference.
Let me try one:
![[Diagram]](diagrams/21/555c6b4b17dad081bbd34e7aa736a233.png)
![[Diagram]](diagrams/2/8c6616adfc0858e2e2292425bd74d364.png)
, 
and 
to make a living group.
No, I guess this has nothing to do Schrodinger's cat, white is trying to manage the weak lower-left-side group and sabaki or somehow live.
Note that the following are requirements to serve as Schrondinger's cat:
1. The weak group must have the opportunity to live and in the meantime, the other player has the opportunity to kill it. (thus both alive and dead)
2. The value of this saving or killing is not big enough so both player choose to tenuki (until there are no big moves elsewhere: this is whole-boarding thinking); but if either player is not strong enough to understand this point and choose to save or kill this group, then this cat suddenly "collapses" into a settled group.
Thanks, this is helpful.
So now I'm thinking...An unsettled group which remains unsettled for some time. It's interesting to point out those examples, but I think it's far more common than the 0.01% you mentioned earlier. Or am I still missing something?
I have created the master page Schrodinger's cat, so further discussion can be moved there, thanks.
![[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]](images/stone-hello.png "Sensei's Library")