Passing and its consequences [#11433]
184.108.40.206: Passing and its consequences
(2021-11-17 11:32) [#11947]
I am playing a game which is in a very interesting situation. I have black and my opponent passed, and I also passed.
Since we have both passed, I believe the game is over.
My opponent now points out that a large Black group is dead with correct play, in which case White wins, so that in the counting, the alleged doomed black group should be counted as White territory.
But who wins? Is black entitled to refuse to accept that White would have found the correct sequence to kill the black group or are the stones and points involved in the dispute ignored in the final count?
Thanks for any suggestions!
: Re: Passing and its consequences
(2021-11-17 13:29) [#11948]
Depends on which rules are used. You also didn't say if the group could be saved if black moves first or not. Generally, two passes only stop the game, and resumption remains possible.
But in case of Japanese rules, since the position is analysed to determine life and death of stones - and you yourself say that you learned about the kill from the opponent - resumption can only be requested with the opponent moving first. Without resumption, a killable group is dead. But even if you request resumption he will be able to play there first.
But the rules are not completely clear on unsettled cases that depend on who gets first move. There is even a clause that says if such "effective move" is found and the players cannot agree then both can lose. Which doesn't really make sense, since your opponent can both accept scoring as is, or resumption with him moving first.
: ((no subject))
(2021-11-17 15:10) [#11949]
I don't know anything about rulesets, but I can tell you how it's done on OGS.
There, you can resume the game in the counting phase before agreeing the counting, for any reason, but the opponent is entitled to the first move after resumption.
I find this system very practical online. I couldn't say how well it would work irl.
220.127.116.11: ((no subject))
(2021-11-17 17:37) [#11951]
Thanks both. These are very useful replies. I think resumption of the game is the practical answer, to play it out to the end to see if the group would be really dead.
: Re: ((no subject))
(2021-11-17 18:12) [#11952]
With territory scoring you don't normally resume just to "play it out and see", since that could change the score. Playing things out in "hypothetical play", see the outcome, then reverting the position to the original for scoring is the normal Japanese procedure.
Resumption would only be used to add actual game moves before scoring, to CHANGE which stones are alive, not just to see or determine that.