Even A Moron Connects Against A Peep / Discussion

Feelings or comments about the main page

crux: aLegendWai, please use the discussion pages for discussion instead of cluttering up the main pages.

aLegendWai: The material in the discussion page is completely removed now.

Rich: So you don't see this as a point of discussion? As yet, nobody has agreed with you; all those replying are voicing opposition, some of whom (myself not included) are significantly stronger and more experienced than you. Kageyama 7p suggests this as a Fundamental of go. Do you consider that you may, just possibly, be lacking in a little humility?

aLegendWai(9k? KGS): Does it mean only pros can add comments/edit a page? I just explain more about when to connect, when not to. We are all learning (even the pros). If you see the following material is wrong, feel free to correct me. ^^

Rich: Of course not. But when a one-dan corrects a 20-kyu, perhaps the 20-kyu should consider the one-dan's experience and knowledge before ploughing ahead regardless. Similarly for a professional helping a 1-Dan with advice. As for corrections, you seem (at least to me) to refuse obstinately to believe that a proverb is treated as anything less than gospel, and to apply your own interpretations to terms when it suits you. Corrections and helpful hints have been provided; you have ignored them. There's no point discussing with someone who is dogmatically convinced of their own correctness at all costs.

Please feel free to go through every proverb one-by-one and find specific situations in which they don't hold; it's not the most challenging intellectual work, and proves little.

crux: aLegendWai, I'll be blunt. While you ask to be corrected if you're wrong, it's getting increasingly difficult to do so because you're writing so much. Not necessarily all of it is wrong or misleading, but I find that a lot of it is inaccurate, irrelevant, stating the obvious, or redundant. As an example of what I'd consider a good contribution to this topic look at HolIgor's recent addition to the parent page.

Please relax for a while, and consider that clarity is more of a virtue in teaching than information overload. Also, when you're thinking about writing for beginners, please also consider that at 9k you're very much a beginner yourself.

I'll shortly be removing the discussion from the main page since I believe it's all cleared up now.

unkx80: aLegendWai, I don't think you should be writing so much stuff with such authorative language when there are so much factual inaccuracies in your stuff...


Feeling or comments about proverb

aLegendWai: Wow! Lots of mixing comments below. Beware when you are reading or you may lose the direction.

aLegendWai: About the proverb which uses the word "moron", it seems to give people bad ideas, suggesting no one should consider no options but connect, say in 99% of all cases, which is very wrong to me.

Bill: Moron does seem a bit strong, perhaps the result of a too vivid translation of the original. A more direct translation is There is no fool who does not connect to a peep.

crux: It's a proverb. This means it's usually a good guideline for a first reaction. The Proverbs page already says that of course there are exceptions - no need to duplicate that warning in every page. What you seem to be trying to do is to cover every possibility and list every possible response, which is neither possible nor a good way to teach. Also, once you get into a userA/userB/userC type of discussion, I feel the whole think doesn't belong on the main page anymore.

aLegendWai: Thanks for your idea.
To me, this proverb is a disaster. And it gives a very wrong guideline/illusion to beginners.

Charles No, I don't like the wording, but it is very useful. I think you misunderstand proverbs.

aLegendWai: I think you are refering to the word disaster. By the way, the proverb itself still use a strong and absolute wording which easily mislead beginners - "Even a moron ..."

You accept the use of absolute wording in proverbs, but not accept the absolute wording used in my statements.
When I says, "A proverb is a disaster." You may argue against it for every extent. If it is a proverb, you may never argue against it. Because if you argue aganst it, you misunderstand proverbs.
Not intend to offend. But is it sort of double standard?
When somone says, "XX move/play is never wrong." Surely lots of people argue against it firmly, listing a lot of couter-argument to prove it wrong. Surely someone is wrong. The statement is too absolute. But when it comes out to be a proverb (eg "A space-jump is never wrong".) No argument anymore.
If you treat my statement as if you treat the proverbs, you may accept what I say.
The statement "A proverb is a disaster." is just served as genernal guides. It can be controversial. There are assumptions/exceptions that you expect to know. It is no need for me to write out everything. Keep it simple and clear. Too much explanation is no good.
It is just like this proverb. Instead of stating its conditions and explanation behind the statement, it simply clip everything except the proverb itself. Listing explanations/conditions only add readers/learners trouble and confusion. One simple statement is everything.


Not intend to offend. But I do think the style of proverb causes more trouble and illusions to beginners than helping them. After the proverb, why not add some explanations/conditions etc.? Why keep it so simple? Really good to beginners? Anyway maybe my thinking is too weird. I am mostly the one and only guy who have this viewpoint.

Its problem starts at "Even a moron ...". It will give beginners the idea, "Ar! We must connect all the time in all situations(except very rare, rare situations). But it is not up to my level to justify other moves. So I must connect all the time. Thanks for the proverb. I know how to play. Not connecting is very very stupid move. When a player plays other moves, I can laugh out loud. What a moron!"

We tell people not to blindly follow proverbs. But proverbs use strong and absoulute wording to emphasise their statements. Why not use other mild wording instead, eg: "It is often a good idea to connect against a peep" Less misunderstanding.

Jantje? As a beginner, you connect against a peep. Then, when you get stronger, you come to dislike being forced like that, and you try other moves. Not uncommonly, you find later that you should have connected after all, and you feel rather stupid. The word 'moron' in the proverb describes that feeling.

Anyway, you are right in some extent. It is the style of proverbs - to largely exaggerate the facts. So it always assumes it is the reader's responsilibity to take a proverb with a large pinch of salt.

You are really a moron if you really trust a proverb.

Rich: You are a moron if you trust it over reading the game out. :) Proverbs are only generally true, whether in Western or Eastern culture; they point to general wisdom, not specific advice.

aLegendWai: :D Sometimes they just point to some very wrong ideas to society (Eg: An Eastern proverb, Everyone is selfish. If you are not selfish, you'd better die.)

Rich: However, one thing that doesn't seem clear in this discussion, or in your arguments: a peep is a move that threatens to cut. If there is no threat in the move, either because you can't cut or because separating the stones is not threatening, then it's not really a peep. If it's a serious threat, then even a moron connects against it.

aLegendWai: Yes, on one hand, a proverb is assumed to be a general guide, not an absolute guide. On the other hand, a proverb pretends it is an absolute guide unfortunately. I do think this will mislead some people (especially some people who are unfamiliar with assumptions behind a proverb).

Rich: A proverb pretends nothing; furthermore, it's impossible to live your life taking all proverbs literally, since many are contradictory.

aLegendWai: "Even a moron should do something..." So if you don't do something, you are someone who is worse than a moron! What does this proverb pretend to say? Will this give beginners a wrong idea?

Extracted from the main page (22 Oct 2004):
In fact, exceptions to this rule are so rare that people quote the old Go proverb "Even a moron connects against a peep".

So is it better if one adds a note below the proverb (saying it is a general rule) or write a proverb out in a mild way (not so determined!)?

Rich: No, because a proverb already exists. And it is referred to as a proverb. For example: A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. This is not meant as an absolute guide to secure profit and speculation, just as a general piece of wisdom. Or do you come from a culture in which there are no proverbs? If so, which one?

About the definition of the word peep, peep itself doesn't mean it must be a successful or threatening peep. I call it true peeps. Some can be false peeps. Peeps can be true or false.

Rich: Well, if you want to redefine peep and introduce your own terms, that's your right; don't expect people necessarily to understand you, though... :P Have a look at the very first line on the peep page. There is a threat to cut, whether you understand that in your use of the word or not.


aLegendWai: It is an interesting question to discuss :)
I try to sum up what our difference in understanding a peep.
Me: A peep is a threat to cut. If one does not respond, one can poke. However it doesn't necessarily mean the poke must successfully cut the group or the spearation of the group is a disaster. Rich: A peep is a threat to cut. If one does not respond, one can poke. And it must necessarily mean the poke must successfully cut the group or the spearation of the group is a disaster.

I call the second definition Rich's peep for simplication. Other readers may read the page of peep to see what peep really means.

Now if we hold the above Rich's definition of peep in mind, it becomes no point to say "Even a moron connects against a peep" because the statement just self-justifies itself. It is never wrong.

To see why, try to put the Rich's definition of peep into the proverb:
- "Even a moron connects against a threat to cut which necessarily mean the coming poke must successfully cut the group or the spearation of the group is a disaster."

So it just simply implies: "Even a moron connects against a Rich's peep (because you have no chice. If you don't connect, you will suffer painfully!)"

The statement itself implicitly justify itself. It is void in logic. It is similar to if I say "A hane and a knight move etc. are never wrong." And the definition of hane and a knight move etc. is "a sucessful hane, knight move etc."

In the real game, your peep may not succeed. Your hane may not succeed. So such kinds of statements are no help with improving your Go skills.

Rich: Which is precisely why even a moron understands it. And if you don't understand it... well, draw your own conclusions. ;)


If there're so many behind meanings in the proverb and expect readers can get all its behind meanings, it is too demanding.

Rich: A proverb should have many meanings, otherwise it's not worth thinking about! :)

aLegendWai: My statements have many meanings behind. So it's worth thinking about! :) Treat my statements in a manner like treating the proverbs. Then you will find my statementa are always right!

aLegendWai: By the way I do think all my arguments are flawless.
"You get it wrong, dude. Can't you see my behind meanings of my statements? ^.^ My every statement is a proverb. You should take mine as a general rule, not absolute. Everything has exceptions :>... And you don't really grasp some of my words... If you treat my statement in the same manner as you treat a proverb, you will find that my arguments are flawless. ^0^" (joking)

Any comment is welcome. :P

crux: There is a dilemma in teaching: sometimes you have to simplify in order to get a point across. If you tell a beginner who has played 10 games in his life that the empty triangle is bad, it will massively help his play. But it's true that he'll tend to treat it as a rule rather than a guideline, so there will come a point where he will have to unlearn parts of his "knowledge". Does this mean he was taught badly? No, because if you try to tell him all possible exceptions to the rule when he doesn't have the experience to understand them, he'll be so confused that he'll go and play chess instead.

aLegendWai: Not difficult indeed. Otherwise a lot of pages in Senseis should clip because it will threaten learners to leave Go and play chess.

crux: It seems to me that you're at the stage where you're starting to unlearn things, and want to tell the world about your discoveries. However, we already know about them, and (speaking for myself only)

aLegendWai: So you should agree not all players know when to connect against a peep; when not to. So is it better to explain more on that part - when should we connect, when not? Probably you think it must be a dan question?

crux: I believe it's better to make a clear point than to confuse the issue with overlong explanations.

aLegendWai: So proverbs are exclusive to beginners only. And knowing proverbs in mind but without knowing when to apply it is equal to not much help in one's play (speaking for myself only).

How about this:
Proverb: "One should do XXX". (<-- tell them when they are beginners)
Note: Proverb is just a general piece of wisdom. Don't think it is absolute.
(<-- It seems our expectation that beginners will not rely on proverbs are wrong! So we should tell them when they are beginners too. Put a short note beside the proverb may save lots of beginners' lives!)

Pre-requisite: (<-- tell them when they become advanced players)
- If A occurs...
- If B occurs...
- etc.

Just a clear point helps very basic beginners only. So how can we help when someone who wish to switch from beginners to advanced players? Avoid any complication and skip everything is an ostrich. We can present ideas without confusing them.

We help them to simplify matters (without telling them the bombs behind the proverbs).


This is a copy of the living page "Even A Moron Connects Against A Peep / Discussion" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2012 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.
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