Wu Ren Go 3 / White

Sub-page of WuRenGo3

Table of contents

Saurus Soldiers, please leave a new suggestion for every move. Even if you agree with the move given by the previous soldier, leave a new suggestion too. Captains may not choose their own moves, so choices are important!!!

Moves 71 to 80

[Diagram]

Moves 71 to 80



W72: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr h6 (a). Basic instinct - block the push.
  • JoelR h4. I'm going to suggest this, although I think it falls under OneTwoThree (Wh4, Bg4, Wh6).
  • dave: I like "a" because it helps protect against the possibility the fight in the center will somehow be able to connect below. And I don't see anything else in the immediate area that would be better, so I'll suggest something outlandish, O10 (c) which will either invade the area above or below,

Moves 61 to 70

[Diagram]

Moves 61 to 70



W70: Suggestions

  • JoelR: K12 (a). It looks important to separate 69 from 65, but our last two moves give us a chance to peep at Black's territory and look at cutting off 53 (black+circle).
  • dave: E11 (b). I think it will capture the two black stones, and make our group stronger toward the top.
  • schEkkEr: Cut at F10 (c)! We have the fighting power here, let's use it.
  • Abydos1: D11 (d) - looser than b but helps us along the edge too.
  • eozberk: (c) looks best to me for also aiming (a) later.
  • JoelR: If we do not take a, my preference is for b.

jvloenen chooses E11 (b). K12 (a) tries to capture an important stone, and to me the peep doesn't seem to accomplish much. F10 (c) tries to capture one stone. It is true we have invested a lot of stones and are strong, so why not capture both stones? D11 (d) is a looser move, and I don't see how it helps on the side.
eozberk, please suggest something else even if you support a suggestion given before.


W68: Suggestions

  • JoelR: F10 (a). If Black protects, I would like to drive along the 12th line to divide 65 from 67.
  • Abydos1: B2 is premature here, W3 should probably be at B8.
[Diagram]

Continuation (i) squeeze


Abydos1: Black at a and we capture 3 stones while giving away the entire center.

JoelR: I thought after abcd we secured the upper left, and leave Black's stones struggling. But I like Abydos's follow up, W3 below B4.

[Diagram]

Continuation (ii) isolates black+circle


  • schEkkEr F12 (b) to get the option to connect to the top or to keep pushing to the left and disconnect the two black groups. E12 would be the next move, or we would get a double atari and could separate Black. After considering JoelR's move the result look quite similar.
  • Abydos1: B4 at W5 and we're in trouble; the stones in the top left are small.
[Diagram]

schEkkEr variant 1

[Diagram]

schEkkEr variant 2


  • tapir: It would be interesting/enlightening to see which continuation you have in mind (say next 5 moves) before deciding upon a move.
  • dave: H12 (c) Make the center group stronger and threaten to cut above them.
  • Abydos1: This is a very complicated situation but I think we have the advantage in fighting here. After spending some time reading this I think a is our best choice and then either capturing the black stone or extending towards the left next. I'll add D11 (d) as an alternative but I think it goes too easy on black. c is going in the wrong direction and b just pushes black towards our weak, lonely stone on the left. The two stones black is threatening to capture here are small compared to the center we're aiming at securing. Here's some of my thoughts on a possible continuation:
  • Abydos1: Bah, this might require more reading... After the W3-B4 exchange below we're short on liberties in the middle and black has plenty with B6 and onward. (Edit: On second though, W3 at B6 is simple but seems a little easy on black...)
[Diagram]

Abydos' thoughts


tapir chooses F12(b). Tough choice. Basically I don't like to force Black to extend by playing at F10 (a) now. And I would extend there as Black, also if Black tenukies with B2, I would capture (because it makes a big center territory in sente.) There is a diagram where Abydos commented B4 at W5 and we are in trouble, but we have a similar line just with forcing at F10 first given by joelr. However, if Black decides to give us the top stones back, we don't want to strengthen them inside. (Our five stones on the top are not weak, because Black is lacking liberties.)

The general idea is, to either take back on the top left while Black still isn't alive inside or letting him capture two stones and take a big center. However, it pretty complicated for me as well so I may be wrong.

[Diagram]

Black can have only one side. (Here, White probably wants to choose whether to play b or a or sth. else later.)


W66: Suggestions

  • dave: G12 (a), extend to get more liberties, then we can take advantage of cutting points.
  • schEkkEr I agree with G12, but give G9 (b) as an alternative to start building on the lower left.
  • JoelR (joining the White team): I agree wth G12, we cannot let Black get a ponnuki. H12(c), followed by J12, seems the only way to keep the ponnuki separate from the right, just to give a third suggestion. Captains, please play.

tapir chooses G12(a). Sacrificing the stone in gote is not enough and there would have been other territorial moves of at least this size on the board (which may even be sente). It is a cutting stone and should not be thrown away too easily, and even if we sacrifice later, Black will now need a stone more on balance to capture. If Black answers at b, I believe this is a fight we can well afford and where Black survival is far from secure. Forcing Black to make a ponnuki with c is not achieving anything as Black can easily live on the inside with the strength of the ponnuki or even if white tries to rescue c, push once, atari, connect... White ends with two cutting points and is unable to defend both.


W64: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr g12 (a). Stabilize before the cut at h10. If we play g10 immediately, I think they can play f11 and bring the cutting stones on the left back to life and we're left with nothing.
  • Abydos1: H10 (b) - the only move, we don't play W62 if we aren't going to cut here.
  • dave: I also like (b) but I'll suggest J14 (c) first which I think black would answer.

tapir chooses H10(b). Takeo Kajiwara says, we should listen our stones. I feel like I hear G11 crying, it tries to do something but fails so alone. H10 is the only move (even if we end upscrewed in the upcoming fight) it makes G11 feel important as only a cutting stone can, G12 forces Black to connect, J14 may well be sente, but a sente which does not help us, but Black in the fight.


W62: Suggestions

  • dave: F11 (a). It looks like black could cause more damage here than we could cause on the right side; this should be a ladder breaker and also attack G10.
  • Abydos1: G11 (b) - cut the large knights move. The c15 stones are unimportant and a just helps black fix his weakness.

tapir chooses G11 (b). I don't know how long we will last in this fight with only two active players making proposals. F11 forces black to strengthen himself which is what Black wants to do anyway - without really making territory in the process. This leaves G11, which likely leads to a very violent fight. I would have been reluctant to start it right now, but now there is no way back. (+ I like it more the longer I look at it.)


Moves 51 to 60

[Diagram]

Moves 51 to 60



W60: Suggestions

  • Abydos1: L9 (a) - attach to a strong stone to help settle our group; this also makes an attack on B55 easier.
  • Dave: E10 (b) to protect against the invading stones
  • schEkkEr: m6 (c)

jvloenen chooses L9 (a). We attach to create possibilities. We don't need to settle our stones anymore I think. Attacking B55 is a good idea however. E10 (b) is too small I think. It just protects some territory around C8. We need to play more active after black got 53. M6 (c) doesn't do much. It is no severe attack on the lower side. And if black wants to close with a move around M6, we can play Q5.


W58: Suggestions

  • dave: G8 (a)
  • schEkkEr L10 (b) Some sabaki in the center, and a ladder breaker for playing J13 later.
  • Abudos1: J7 (c) - aim to connect W52 out and/or strengthen it so it has an easier time living.

jvloenen chooses J7 (c). Help both W52 and W56, and prepare for cutting of B55 and making a deep invasion to the right, which seems miai. G8 (a) doesn't help our stones much, nor does it take or destroy territory. It will turn out to be dame later on, or (if we get E9 for instance) the territory will be too small for a gote move. L10 (b) seems to be too slow. After the 52/53 exchange our territory around F14 is gone, so we need to be more agressive and destroy more of black's territory. For a deeper invasion, we better prepare first.


W56: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr h6 (a) to connect to i10 and maybe later be able to attack the bottom
  • dave: J8 (b) to help out the W52 stone
  • Abydos1: J5 (c) - lean on the bottom to help W52, directly answering B55 leads to an easily attackable group in the center and we don't want to help black fix the weakness between B53 & B55.

jvloenen chooses J5(b). J8(b) makes a heavy group. We do not know if we want to run, to makes eyes or to sacrifice yet, so we better do not add stones to this group. H6(a) feels better, but that's too easy for black. So J5 it is, although it is better to not attach a stone. (J6 would be better.)


W54: Suggestions

  • Abydos1: F5(a) - A big point for both sides; I think we should've played this before jumping into the middle with W52. Black pulling out the two stones on the left is still small, after B53 there are no points in that area. The bottom left corner is unfinished and a helps support W52, grows our moyo on the bottom left and threatens to attack black on the bottom. If black defends on the bottom we can look to play something like m to help solidify our moyo and aim to capture the two stones on the left.
  • schEkkEr I mostly agree with Abydos1, but give L5 (b) as an alternative. I believe we are still ahead on territory, so we can try to reduce. They have more to lose in mutual destruction than we have.
  • dave: G13 (c) to fence in our territory, and threaten to cut off B53.

Tapir chooses F5 (a) G13 c tries too hard making territory where we basically forced the opponent to walk into our moyo. Any fight here, even if successful in fencing in some territory will weaken our important J10 stone. L5 b is an invasion not a reduction as is any stone beyond the black+circle stone line (which isn't linked back). With no good way to make eyes i believe it is an overplay (I would expect Black to play a keima cutting us off, and complicated fight next which we could not afford to lose). The leaves a it works together with J10, although I am not sure that it achieves much. I am surprised that nobody considered calmer moves according to the principle of mutual damage by walking in further or R16 which was considered sente last move.


W52: Suggestions

  • schEkkEr J10(a); this should remove c14 aji on a large scale and give us options towards the center right.
  • dave: O5(b); same idea carried to the extreme, and helps us do something with the corner.
  • Abydos1: R16(c) - take our sente in the top right first (I don't foresee us invading the right at all). A is a big move but it's gote, we should take our sente moves first. See the diagram after W44 for how I think we should continue. B is too aggressive at this time; we'll just create a weak group with nowhere to run allowing black to solidify all his territory.

Tapir chooses J10 (a) O5 will lead to a weak and running center group, i.e. solidified black territory and gently reduced white prospects in the upper left. Black will follow when we run there. R16(c) is huge, but I am not sure that it is necessarily sente when two big frameworks are at stake in the center, Black can not settle the corner in sente anyway, so it will likely remain as sente for us - as our trouble was the huge black prospects not the amount of territory black has, I choose J10(a).


Moves 41 to 50

[Diagram]

Moves 41 to 50



W50: Suggestions

  • Abydos1: b14 (a) - extend; the only move.

Tapir chooses B14 (a) Only move, indeed. Black says they want to create aji, but actually they may be removing aji. (Black at W50 not available anymore and White anyway not to capture the single stone in gote anytime soon.)


W48 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: F16 (a) - connect.
  • thanatos13: D18 (b) - go crazy.
  • schEkkEr Maybe I'm just stupid or blind, but can't they pull out the C15 stone which might be bad news for the left side? So I propose C14(c).
  • dave: B19 (d) attack the corner

Abydos1 chooses F16 (a). Since tapir & jvloenen seem to still be away I'll go ahead and finish up the corner here. Connecting is the only option; c is too early, we have to defend the double atari first and the aji of black c is not that bad right now (try reading it out for several moves). b doesn't work because black can escape with the double atari and pulling out c.

  • tapir: I agree. C10 is well in place, and we would "crawl ahead" in case, that is black would just generate a weak group here without any prospects of capturing our stone. The time to consider this is when you play the double hane because the counter hane is always a possibility (and I am sure Abydos and jvloenen did).

W46 Suggestions

  • dave: D15 (a) as speculated by Abydos1 several moves ago.
  • Abydos1: E16 (b) - I think a is the right move but I'll add b as an option here giving black a ponnuki on the left.

jvloenen chooses D15 (a). A local move is necessary and E16 (b), giving a ponnuki, is too easy for black.
btw. this is my last move for the next three weeks.


[Diagram]

Abydos1: Continuation


Possible continuation

  • Abydos1: I was looking at the game on a board last night and I think this is a good continuation for us; after black lives in the corner with B1-B3 we can take sente since the aji of black+circle is small right now. I think we should exchange W4 for B5 and then jump into the middle at W6. W6 seems to be the focal point for most of the board now, but especially the lower left; it looks to be sente too since black is thin on the bottom. I expect black will probably jump into the corner at a or b and after the bottom is settled we should look at playing near e. The game still looks even to me but if we get W6 and a play at e I think we're in great shape since we have plenty of solid territory and are even starting a moyo or two of our own and black is looking overconcentrated with little hope of converting the moyos to solid territory. One question I have is if W6 and black b do we defend the corner at c in gote or play the big point at e first; I'm not sure but I think we can defend at c and still be fine after a black play around e (the center is still open and we can still play near e to reduce black's moyos. A white play near e is also helping remove the aji of black pulling out black+circle.

W44 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: B15 (a) - hane again, see diagram below for continuation.

jvloenen chooses B15 (a). Only move.


W42 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: F18 (a) - double hane (see diagrams from W38); we are very strong here, let's use that strength.
  • schEkkEr: I like Abydos1's variant too, but for choice give the usual 3-3 invasion continuation, F17 (b).
  • dave: I like (a) or (b) but I'll give J10 (c) as a suggestion.

jvloenen chooses F18 (a). F17 (b) feels a little slack, as we're strong around K17. J10(c) is a very big move. Much bigger than S15 (suggested at move 38). It is not tenuki time yet however, as the loss in the corner would be tremendous.

Moves 31 to 40

[Diagram]

Moves 31 to 40



W40 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: E17 (a) - Block and double hane, see diagrams from previous move.
  • dave: I think (a) is the obvious and correct move, but I'll give Q16 (b) as a possible tenuki.

tapir chooses E17 (a). Only move. (I guess the keima F17 would have been an alternative, but as we decided the way to go at the last move already, we can as well stick to it.)

  • jvloenen: What do you mean Tapir? F17 is a move to get sente in a situation like this. We cannot play F17 without D16 as far as I know. (The move played is not a bad choice of course, I just don't understand your remark).
  • tapir: I mean the only other move I would consider in this situation is F17, otherwise E17 is the only move. (I don't understand what you say about D16. We have D16 and C16.) F17 gives up quite a lot of territory compared to our expected variations (-> abydos below), but gaining sente for a play on a focal point or a reduction may be worth as much.
  • jvloenen: I meant C16 not D17, sorry. I agree F17 gets sente for points. And if we have real sente (F17,F18,sente move,black answers sente move), the Abydos variations are gone. I don't know if this is a good idea right now, and like to discuss this later on as to not spoiling this game.

W38 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: C16 (a) - I think we should block this way and play the double hane; see variations below for more detail.
  • dave: D17 (b), the other obvious play. I think a is better, because there is a bigger area on the left side, and because the left side is not as strong as the top so it can be strengthened more by these moves. But I'm not good enough to tell for sure, so I'll give b as an option.
  • eozberk?: S15 (c) - What about tenuki? Maybe, it is time to invade black's territory because black will have sente if white responds to san-san invasion. I think it depends on style and current score estimation.

jvloenen chooses C16 (a). D17 (b) builds a wall on the wrong side as Dave pointed out. S15 (c) is interesting. I never though about this move. It seems to work, although we need to be carefull not to play a variation getting a few extra points which end with gote for us. Currently the sente value of S15 seems smaller than the black continuation in the corner (if we play S15, black will ignore and play C16), so C16 it is.

[Diagram]

Double Hane


  • Abydos1: After this black can play at a or b and neither looks good for them:
[Diagram]

Double Hane - a


  • Abydos1: We can play this way with W4 instead of connecting at a and black is not going to get a good result trying to pull out B3 and still has to go back and live at b
[Diagram]

Double Hane - b


  • Abydos1: After the exchange with W6 black's ponnuki is very cramped although there is a little aji with black+circle now but the ladder still works.
[Diagram]

Double Hane - b, solid wall B7 at white+circle


  • Abydos1: We can also play this way to build a big wall in sente.

W36 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: J15 (a) - Connect.
  • schEkkEr: I agree with J15 (a). For options, I propose J14 (b), which wants to be more active but is not very solid and would lead to an agressive fight.

tapir chooses J15 (a). No real alternatives, so no need to wait for more proposals and jvloenen to decide. Capturing directly may be considered as alternative in other circumstances.

eozberk: Hello everyone, I just joined your team, I think it will be fun.

W34 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr Difficult for me - I'm never sure whether we are already alive here or not. As for Q6 - that stone looks expendable for me as it's no cutting stone, at least the surrounding black groups look like they won't come under attack anytime soon. Also, adding another move to the corner looks pretty endgame-ish (if the corner is alive). So, on behalf of the proverb "When in doubt, tenuki" ^^ I propose c10 (a) as that's big, a nice extension from the lower left and quite ideal from the top left.
  • dave: D13 (b) same idea, I think we can leave the corner for now.
  • Chew: I may as well suggest S3 (c), unless we can't leave the corner yet.
  • Saurus I'm not convinced that we're alive. I'll offer s5 (d)
  • Abydos1: C16 (e) - I'm not sure we're alive but at the very least I think we can get a ko or seki but d does seem big in that it removes a lot of sente moves against the corner and gives us a big follow up on the right. a, while a big point, is the wrong direction from our corner since we're already low on that side and b is too thin. I think we're better off just closing the top left corner and solidly then we can attack any black invasions on the top and left very aggressively. I wonder if we can cut at k though; I don't think we can get away with it now but it may be a useful cut in the future.
  • lackita?: Q5 (f) - It looks slow, but it seems like it does an excellent job of separating black and gets us into the framework that's developing.

jvloenen chooses C10 (a). I think the R4 corner is alive, so both S3 (c) and S5 (d) are too slow. Therefore we play in the largest open space. I agree the position in relation to C6 is (too) low. This move in relation to D16 is fine though. D13 (b) is not good here. This is a moyo based move (the side is still open at C11 and it doesn't help the corner either). C16 (e) is a good move too. If we want to invade or reduce around tenger later on, I like a white stone on the left side. Therefore I choose a, not e. Q5 (f) is a move we like to play soon. It seems sentish for us (black will not answer immediately, will play other sente moves first). As black Q5 isn't sente either, I think we can play a now, and hopefully f later on. O5 (k) is too greedy, it will help black. We better use the threat to cut to connect f in sente.


W32 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr How about P2(a). When Black takes, we get to play Q5 and R5.
  • dave: Q5 (b) ko fight!
  • Abydos1: Q4 (c) - connect, black has a lot of aji on the bottom with the cuts and we might even be able to get away with sente here (I think).

jvloenen chooses Q4 (c). P2 (a) aiming to connect the useless Q6 stone (black gets the corner of will fix his shape on the lower side) doesn't make sense to me. If P2 it must be followed by O3 or O2. Both are failures for us. Q5 (b) a ko? The ko has no follow-up, so black has enough threats (pushing at O17, a ponnuki at K15). So we better connect now, and treat connecting the Q6 stone and capturing the P3 stone as miai.


Moves 21 to 30

[Diagram]

Moves 21 to 30




W30 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr: O5 (a). Aims at the O3 cut so I don't think Black can ignore this.
  • dave: Q3 (b).
  • Chew: I'll suggest P5 (c) in case we want to prevent the cut.
  • Abydos1: I think b is probably best but I'll add Q4 (d) as another option.
  • thanatos13: They all look so painful, getting our 28 stone cut off with "b" or getting undercut with "c"... I don't know... and I'll suggest R5 (e).

jvloenen chooses Q3 (b).O5 (a), P5 (c), Q4 (d) and R5 (e) all force black to fix the cutting point (for instance at O3, Q3, N3 and Q3). Next I don't see a good follow-up move, we will be left with just a bunch of stones. So I choose b to get some eye-space. We will be sealed in the corner however -which isn't good- and we cannot sacrifice the corner stones anymore.
I wonder why no one suggested cutting at Q3 now? With the W28 block against the push at Q4, and the possibility to capture W27 in a ladder we would get nice forcing moves to settle our group and get out into the black influence (if black captures the cutting stones, we extend first to get the forcing move at O5 and get forcing moves at Q3 and P2 which would be good. If black plays Q3 we capture W27 and leave the cornerstones for aji).

W28 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: I'll go ahead and put up (a) P5 assuming black hanes. I didn't like this move because it allows black to develop the bottom and B5 already has support with B3 so after something like the following:
[Diagram]

Continuation?

  • Abydos1: Joseki has white continuing at a but black has black+circle here so how are we supposed to continue after B5?
  • thanatos13: we have more than one joseki. The diagram there looks like a loss to me. So I say Q3(b). I forget the continuation, but i'm guessing black is going to atari, making us connect, giving us a solid (but not yet living) corner and giving them good looking cutting points.
  • dave: I like a, but I'll suggest O3 (c).
  • Saurus: I suggest w-q6 (d). Then, if black plays the hane at b-q7, we make good shape with w-p6.

jvloenen chooses Q6 (d). I agree with your analysis. P5 (a) creates a solid group aiming at the pincer. With black 23 in place it's more like creating a heavy group however. Q3 (b) will be followed by P5, Q4 and probably P2 (black has nothing to fear on the outside). We'll have a sealed group, and maybe even a sealed dead group. I never thought about O3 (c). Very interesting at first sight, aiming at cutting points. Black will probably push through at Q4 and P5, Q3, N4 will follow. If black next play around N6, it looks like we have an one-eye group. So Q6 it is, aiming at the other suggestions later on.

[Diagram]

Saurus: I like the shape for white...

  • thanatos13: I'm wondering why we didn't just do Q6 first. 1: Did we unnecessarily strengthen our opponent's weak stone? 2: If we played Q6, black solidly played R7 (to reduce variations with cuts), then would we play P4? I don't think I've seen our current shape before. 3: If black Q4, can they cut us?
    • jvloenen: Do Q6 first? What do you mean? Q6 wasn't suggested for move 26.
  • thanatos13: very true. hmm... If it was, would it have made the situation better? black looks like he is ahead by quite a bit.




W26 Suggestions

  • dave: P4 (a)
  • thanatos13: 25 was a little closer than I thought. Cutting makes us too weak and I couldn't find a cut that will give us sente, so I suggest settling right now with (b). They can't completely surround us, so it's still good. If only the 23 stone wasn't so close. If this was all planned, I would be amazed.
  • Abydos1: Q5 (c), lean on this side to gain strength. b is too passive and gets surrounded. I feel like a is too passive as well and it's strengthening black's weak side here.
  • Chew: It'll take black more than one move to entirely kill all aji here. We can always tenuki and come back. If black ignores this to play again in the corner, that hane looks pretty huge. So 'd' at K14.
  • Saurus: r5 (e). Keep miai - choice of living or running, but with an extra stone in the area, it makes living a little easier.

jvloenen chooses P4 (a).We're under heavy attack, so tenuki is not an option now (unless we think we cannot live of course). K14 (d) is just too small. Q2 (b) feels too passive. The other options are all joseki. P4 is the most flexible move, creating the most cutting points. (We're under attack so cutting points are fine. We will sacrifice to get sabaki if needed).

W24 Suggestions

  • dave: D11 (a)
  • Saurus: I think we need to invade black's moyo before it becomes impossible. I suggest q5 (b).
  • Abydos1: k14 (e), this push is big as a black play here is sente and very solid building even more influence in the center; I can hardly see black ignoring this and even though they will probably hane it is a sente play for us and leaves the aji of the cut behind. After this exchange I think we should play calmly and close off the top left corner, black's stones have a strange relationship in the bottom right and are not working well together; even after a black play at d there are still plenty of invasion points. If we play too hastily in the bottom right black is just going to build wonderful thickness and make good use of his stones on the right and bottom side.
  • schEkkEr: I agree that we must do something about the right side; however, that the Black move is positioned just right to limit our possibilities if Black chooses this variant beginning with R4:
[Diagram]

Black answers Q5 with R4


I admit that I'm a bit at a loss of giving something better; as wR4 would give Black the opportunity to get a wall pointing towards the left which would be bad too. So I propose a deep reduction move at n4 (c).
jvloenen chooses R4 (d). I think we all agree to play inside the black moyo is best. Inside the black moyo, we like to build a stable group as fast as possible, so a third line move is best. R4 (d) is such a move. It's the standard approach to the P3 stone too.
D11 (a) is on the wrong side of the board. Q5 (b) will be answered at R4 and we will have an eyeless floating group. N4 (c) will be answered at R4 too, giving black lots of points and we will have a floating group in return. L5 (f) will force black to fix the bottom at M4 or (again) play R4. I don't see a good follow-up for this move. K14 (e) is not big enough, black will ignore and close the corner.

Abydos1: I think after B4, W5 at B6 (or one space further) might be playable.

  • thanatos13: i don't see why we have to have an extremely weak group that would probably die. r4(d) is a logical choice to settle. The center will be reduced in due time, don't panic. they deserve their points because we have komi. (In the diagram shown, being undercut and surrounded with not much hope in the center might not be as playable as you think). Are my words too mean?
  • thanatos13: to Abydos1: that may be playable, but we have nothing to use that wall against, since the Q9 stone nullifies the perfect extension, making the wall weak. (also it's still undercut)
  • Abydos1: the point of the jump is to get out into the center to prevent us being surrounded by a black play at B6; black has the advantage in this corner so we can't expect to do much beside live and hopefully somewhat reduce black's territory here.
  • thanatos13: You expect to live with a void, undercut wall? At what cost? If we get dashed around like a ragdoll, then we're just securing their moyos with no guarantee that we will live. Please remember the Corner 1st, side 2nd, Center 3rd rule. There is still the around tengen move and your (e) push left, we can save that till later. First we'll need to reduce the corner and side. Do you not agree?
  • Saurus: What about a light reduction - something like L5 (f)? Then, if b-L3, we play w-p5, and if b-p5, we play w-L3.
[Diagram]

After w-L5, if black L3


[Diagram]

After w-L5, if black p5




W22 Suggestions

  • dave: J15 (a)
  • schEkkEr: Q9 (b)
  • Abydos1: R10 (c), splitting the right side is big and this helps reduce the usefulness of black's influence; I don't like the high move of (b) because all we need to do here is make a secure group and we're happy. Since the ladder to capture k15 doesn't work for black I think we can tenuki there; if we we're going to play there I'd prefer the more secure capture of J16.
  • Saurus: K16 is a cutting stone. Therefore, I suggest that we put it out of action permanently with w-j16 (d). If black then plays on the right side, we can approach the bottom right corner, and vice versa. It may be a slow move, but IMHO, it is urgent, because k16 effectively keeps our groups separated, and b-j16 looks rather unpleasant for white.
  • Phelan: Not a suggestion, just a notice that I'm leaving the game, since I haven't had time to check senseis lately. Sorry White team. :(

jvloenen chooses J16 (b). This is one of the two possible tenuki points in this double hane variation as black cannot capture K15 in a ladder. (The other point the normal continuation white O17,O18,P18,N18,R17,tenuki which will not be played anymore).
Defend or invade? As I don't see a good point for black fixing the M3 gap, the open corner and the right side with a single move, I think we can defend. It's big, and to be honest I don't like the two invasion points suggested. J15 (a) is about the same. It leaves more posibilities for black later on.
R10 (c) is too close to the black wall. We want to play the R16-S15 exchange some time, so if black pushes us from below, we can create a stable group by extending to R13, and the exchange feels like killing our own group. With the obvious exchanges, black has a nine stone wall and will never even think about pushing at R12.
Q9 (b) is a fourth line stone. Aiming to build influence (building influence inside the black influence doesn't make much sense) or make it easier to jump out if there is not enough eye space (there is a lot of space however, and jumping doesn't make points), so we don't want to play on the fourth line here.



Moves 11 to 20

[Diagram]

Moves 11 to 20




W20 Suggestions

jvloenen chooses L17 (a). Only move (Tenuki is always an option?). Note black decided to not push at O17 before this atari. If black will push and cut now we can just capture the cutting stone. (In the normal variation we cannot, as black will atari at O17).


W18 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr: K16 (a) seems to be the only move here, if we can't play the double hane, as topazg said in the discussion of the last move.
  • topazg: Agreed, that's my thoughts anyway. I will however offer the double hane at K15 (b) in case the captain disagrees with me. I'm very happy being pushed from behind on the 4th line -- although we do really want to get onto the right hand side asap
  • dave: K17 (c) for the sake of suggestions.

jvloenen chooses K15 (b). The double hane is very powerfull, let's be brave. I have never seen K16 (a), it feels too timid. K17 (c) is too timid anyway (you can give non-local suggestions too - tenuki is always an option; if you suggest an invasion anywhere for instance, or want to play a sente move in between elsewhere, we can discuss it in relation to the suggestions given).

  • topazg: Are we really throwing away our only territory like this :( Black's last move is not joseki because it pushes White from behind on the 4th line, but instead we're letting him deprive us of that ? What am I missing below? Move 28 at G17 perhaps? Having seen very clearly in the comments that the soldiers (or at least one of them) felt the double hane was unplayable, if a captain really is going to choose it please could they also follow up with an explanation of why the soldier was wrong. Powerful is only good with purpose, and being pushed along the 4th line from behind is so fundamentally good (and most certainly not timid!) that there is obviously a strong reason for deviating from that - I just can't see it.
  • Saurus: Interestingly enough, "Many Faces of Go" Joseki Tutor gives the double hane as the only viable continuation in this board position. I just had a look now as a result of this discussion, since I don't think I'm really strong enough to evaluate the intricacies of the position and the move myself. :)
    • topazg: That's very interesting, thanks. I don't suppose there were any comments in that about preferred situations in the adjacent corners? EDIT: I've just had a look at it myself, and other dictionaries, and it does look normal, with the cut at "a". The position of the top left and lower right implies that my suggested cut is overplay, but I am keen to see how much better the joseki is for Black than normal with his lower right position. However, White's D16 will also help in joseki for White, so maybe it evens out. I would be keen to see the punishment of my variation if anyone has one though :)
      • tapir: Oh, I am not really here, just this. It is sometimes hard to explain your thoughts especially refutation for not yet played future moves without giving a lot of hints. In my opinion it is inconsistent for Black to switch from a moyo forming plan to a grab some territory and produce weak groups plan. However, the cut will make for a more complicated game for both sides.
[Diagram]

Continuation

[Diagram]

Continuation - Now White has nothing on the top?

PS, White 24 is funny shape, but it restricts Black's development due to liberties:

[Diagram]

Continuation - Black jumps further


W16 Suggestions

  • schEkkEr: I guess keeping on pushing ((a), L17) would be ok as they are pushing from behind. However, I would like to be more active. Can we bend around with b (L16)? I suppose a play in another area (on the right) would let them bend around which would be bad.
  • topazg: Either are ok to me, but I'd chose "b" (L16) out of the two. Tenuki feels out of the question here. EDIT: The reason I don't mind "a" is for the same reason you suggest getting on the right. If Black jumps ahead at the top, we play to split on the right side. If Black tenukis, leaning around sadly feels too small (let's face it, if we hane and Black tenukis, we probably aren't going to connect solidly), so I'd still choose "b", but that's my reasoning behind why :)
  • Abydos1: I agree with b and don't believe it's possible to tenuki here.
  • Saurus: To me, "b" (L16) is the only possibility. I can't even force myself to think about anything else - the desire to play (b) is just too strong. Then, if w-L15, we hane again with b-k15:
    • Abydos1: For continuations see [ext] eidogo or [ext] josekipedia
    • schEkkEr: A joseki dictionaire? Boooooring :D However, note that Black will get a HUGE moyo if he deviates somewhere and gets to play on the right first. I'm not sure if that is what we want.
    • topazg: The double hane is not playable. If Black plays L15, we take K16 and can be happy enough.

tapir chooses L16 (b) This seems to be one of two proposed moves (b and d), as I understand schekker to propose b as well. d feels like passing (not exactly, but a stone there would only reduce some aji after the hane, which we will never be able to play after letting black get ahead here), remains b as the only move. I don't think cutting totally changes the game - black has more than one move to answer there anyway. Please reserve a..f letters for genuine proposals and use other letters for commenting on variations you don't propose (k..z or something like that).

[Diagram]

After w-L16?


  • schEkkEr What if he cuts?
    • topazg You mean you weren't reading the analysis for 8? ;) Seriously though, go down to the last couple of diagrams in "topazg's idea" (even though those diagrams weren't part of my idea) and have a look at some typical continuations.
    • schEkkEr Seems I overlooked it. What implication on direction of play has the fact that now the wall shows in a different direction (downwards) than in the example in 8 (to the left)? I suppose that here the situation is more difficult for White as the wall is facing a black position on the bottom?
    • topazg Actually, because White has D16, I'm happier for White here than I was below, where Black gets a reasonably good position on both sides of that White group. At least here White can work towards his own stone.
[Diagram]

w-L16, Black cuts


dave: O17 (d), then we can play somewhere else and come back to b later.



W14 Suggestions

  • Chew: I guess we're supposed to play M17 (a) here.
  • Abydos1: Agreed, a is the only move here.
  • schEkkEr: I agree. For choices: S16(b) is a big move in the corner, R10(c) to split up the right side. ...and now for something completely different: R3(d)!!!

tapir chooses M17 (a). Only move. No need to wait.


W12 Suggestions

  • topazg: I'm betting on a Black extension, so if he does, I nominate n17 (a) to get in there first!
  • Saurus: I agree with (a) as a reply to b-o16. But since we're supposed to give options, I guess the only other reasonable option that I can see is o17 (b), although it would be pushing from behind on the third line.
  • Chew: If black takes 'x', we could take 'c' at S16, for the sake of options?
  • Abydos1: I think both a and b are playable. If we play b I think it's with the intent of tenukiing black's next push to split the right side otherwise it's too slow compared to a. I'll add d (r16) as a suggestion but I think the corner is the wrong direction. I prefer a here.
    • topazg: I don't think we can push at "b" and then tenuki to split. Below is almost intolerably painful. 4 at "a" is the only option if B3 happens, and if 4 is going to be at "a", better to jump ahead now
  • lackita?: "e" for options, probably not possible until after the corner is secure, though.

jvloenen chooses N17 (a). Abydos is right: O17 (b) can be played if we need to hurry to play on the right side, giving black a nice position on the top in return (Black N16, R10, N17, S17). I think the black formation is open enough, so we follow the normal sequence and take points. S16 (c) and R16 (d) is endgame play, expanding the corner. We want to invade the right side, so leave it as open as possible. N18 (e) is too slow.

[Diagram]

Tenuki




Moves 1 to 10

[Diagram]

Moves 1 to 10




W10 Suggestions

  • Saurus My suggestion - (a) p17 - Joseki
  • dave: (b) q16 (expecting B at q15 and W at a)
  • schEkkEr (c) s16 - footsweep to keep a big corner, later split up the right side which seems important to me. (I admit that I have not read out everything in the corner, though.)
  • Abydos1: a - joseki and the standard response to getting pressed. b should only be played if we intend to cut (which I don't think we should), otherwise it just makes black stronger; its Aji Keshi. I'm pretty sure c just gets us completely surrounded and in gote, not a good situation.
  • topazg: (a) - I wouldn't consider anything else here. I agree with Abydos1 completely on his points on (b) and (c) as well.
  • lackita?: agree with previous suggestions, but offer d since everybody's supposed to make a new suggestion.
  • topazg: Heh, ok, I'll add (e) as fun and not entirely without purpose.

tapir chooses P17 (a). Q16 (b) is probably the move to be considered next. If one doesn't intend to cut one should not play it. (s. OneTwoThree) If white cuts one possibility for black is shown below, which is similar and I believe better for black than the expected follow up from a. Other variants feature white living in the corner (in gote) and leaving a weak center group. As this will help black build a framework, I did not choose b. But I don't feel qualified to say this is definitely bad as well (which I would say for for c to e. Though after white e, black a, black has to be careful with the cut at b.)

[Diagram]

After b?


W10 discussion

topazg: How do we a) plan on dealing with the taisha, and more concerningly to me, b) if Black presses down in sente and builds a framework:

[Diagram]

Concern A - Is this taisha variation ok for us, as Black can force it after W2?

topazg: I personally think this looks ok for us. If black plays 3 at "a", then White at "b", B5, W4 seems good as the ladder on B1 works for White. I'd be very happy with this variation for us.

Andy: Dont Peep At Bamboo Joints

topazg: Yeah, but it is joseki, and was used to force W6 (it takes a key point preventing White playing at B7 at that point, else Black cuts) so that Black gets the corner.

[Diagram]

Concern B - What is our plan against this?

topazg: Maybe this is too loose by Black, but it feels intimidating. "a" and "b" exchange could be ok, but the purpose of the hoshi stones is to build influence and develop well on the sides. This whole joseki seems to undermine D16 (I'll pull out a reference for this if anyone wants), so I think we want to develop the top, but of course without starting to build Black a good framework. This is why I chose the other approach, as this feels a bit nice for Black.




W8 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: (No longer my suggestion) q5 (a). Well that was a quick response from black. After some thought I've settled on this move; I think the bottom right area has become an important point because if black gets to play there he has a solid position from which to attack any invasion on the bottom side. Now, as tapir pointed out on move 4 this wasn't a good idea on the top side because black can block underneath and undercut any territory we'd aim to make on the side; however, now that black has played B7 we have the option of jumping into the middle aiming to make use of the large gaps between B3-B5-B7 (see diagram below); the farther approach gives black less options to counterattack us here. As for a more standard answer to B3 at r4 black can just lean on us and gain thickness to work with B7. Black does have the option though to attach at p5 and I'm not too sure what would happen there but I think we'd be ok. As it is, I think a is the best play in this corner now; and, as I said before, I think B7 has made this area the most urgent in which to play. I'd be willing to make a play in the top right if we could guarantee sente to come play in this corner first but I don't think that's going to happen. Granted, these are situations I'm not too comfortable in and my first instinct was to play calmly in either the top right or middle right but I'm hesitant about letting black get the first move in this corner.
  • Saurus: My suggestion - p16 (b). Since the p3 stone is misplaced from its usual q3 spot in the Kobayashi fuseki, an invasion/reduction in that corner might be easier than usual. The idea of playing two 4-4 stones to start with is consistent with building a moyo, and I feel this is achieved more easily with an approach to the top right. The high approach to the r15 stone also will make reduction of the right side easier, and we may even end up with a wall facing our moyo.
  • lackita?: I think (a) is the right direction, but playing too close to black's strength on the lower side. Rather than r4, I would expect black to play at q7, which would give black the opportunity to develop both the right and the lower side while attacking. I would play (c) to split up the right side. If black approaches from the top, whites extension down the side will be effective in aiming at the open corner. If black approaches from the bottom, whites extension toward the r15 stone seems to be an effective attack.
  • dave: I like b, because it would be big if black played there and then a white invasion around c would be caught between two big black groups. But I'll suggest d (M16). If black invades the top then answer with b; if black invades the right side then a defensive move at the top will have black in between two big white groups.
  • Abydos1: With the change in the black move I prefer the split at c now, the B3-B7 gap is awkward and black has no easy way to secure territory on the bottom in one or two moves so our approach at a isn't as urgent. In fact I believe e would now be the proper play in that corner if we were to play there. (captains: feel free to disregard a; I'm leaving it on the board since there's already been discussion around it. Anyone else can re-suggest it if they want.) Edit: after further thought I'd like to change my suggestion to i r7, its similar to c but makes miai of a play in the corner and making a base at c. Sorry if this is confusing for anyone, I don't intend to be changing my suggestions but there has been a lot of discussion here (and black changed their initial move). So a/e no longer my suggestion (although I think topazg said he was suggesting e now...
  • Chew: Just to give additional options, J17 (f) would give us a pretty good double winglike shape. We certainly need to do something to prevent black's moyo soon, but we can't afford for black to take a large move up top.
  • Phelan: Sorry for jumping in late. I like b, but I'm leaving g, as I think it might be playable

jvloenen chooses Q17 (g). It is good to see the nice discussion below!
No empty corners anymore and no urgent moves, so it's time for a second class move: create or prevent a shimari. Two possibilities. In the lower corner it is not easy to find the correct point. Enter the corner? Create a wall? Push black into a low position on the lower part of the board? We don't know yet.
Preventing a shimari is gote in general, so black will have the first move in the other corner. As black doesn't have a perfect continuation on the lower side (as you all noted) I prefer to play in the upper-right corner.
As P16 (b) gives black a lot of easy points (this moves is a local loss) I prefer the normal good move on Q17. Both sides get good positions on this part of the bord. If black takes the last corner, we can create a group in between the two facing walls (and the gap between B3 and B7 remains).

  • tapir: I just want to note that all moves played by professional players in this position have been proposed here. (Q5, P16, Q17 and R7) The only move I would consider clearly as a bad one is R4, which helps or even forces black to form a moyo starting with a knight's jump in sente. I am not sure about P5, it seems to be strange to reduce the black framework before there is an enclosure to begin with. Especially when the B1 stone aims at influence in this direction as well. I tend to believe that this is an idea suited if there is a weak black group or white strength at the top with the strength turning into a framework by P5 and the followup or the weak group losing the destination towards which it tries to run.

topazg: That makes sense. I'm trying to deprive Black of being able to build a large corner where he doesn't fear a corner invasion due to resulting thickness. It feels like after Black has built a shimari and side extension, P5 is a logical reduction, so if induces that position anyway it can't be outright bad - on top of that, if Black can find a move (such as my concern B) that means White has no options other than inside the corner, it felt like a good way of keeping Black's development small. We'll see what Black does down there :)


topazg's idea

[Diagram]

topazg's idea

topazg: I'm not so keen on "c". It feels like the purpose of White's game is to use the position he's created towards a moyo idea as Saurus has said. I don't think much of Black's choice of upper right and lower right stone either, and so I'd probably play a high approach to the lower right as a forcing move, and then a close approach to the upper right with "b", to prevent Black's framework from becoming too strong and work on building strength on the upper side. This way, Black "1" is struggling to develop well on the right side because of the light position of White "8", and White "10" can then develop the upper side quickly.

Abydos1: I don't feel W8 is good; B9 is already the natural move to play to close the bottom right but after that there's no moyo on the bottom and the gap between B3 and B7 is large; black's stones end up not working too well together. If we want to play in the corner then do it but not with some distant approach that just induces black to complete the shimari like he already wants and black can look to play on the right side to make it hard for us to settle that stone. I'm not seeing any black moyo developing here, the stones just are not working together for black; now had B7 been played one to the right on the star point there was a definite possibility of a moyo especially if we tried to jump into the corner at the standard e. As for the top right, b seems playable but may let black take a nice corner too easily. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with g though and we have the ladder to the bottom left if things get complicated. I think a move around c is a good direction because a black move there makes entering the bottom right harder for us (see diagram below). c is also the direction black would want to extend from a bottom right shimari.

topazg: But this is a moyo game, B9 is not where Black would want to play. with his position at the bottom, he can be very happy playing at W8 - any White corner invasion will give Black incredible influence. Likewise, for White to approach at "g" gives Black the ability to sit straight on top of the White position, working well with the right hand side and negating a lot of the influence of the hoshi stone at D16. This is textbook stuff from the Direction of Play.

Abydos1: I'd argue that after B7 it's not a moyo game; black decided to play closer to B5 to strengthen their group there and B3 is not positioned well for a moyo on the bottom. The natural continuation from B3 is the shimari at the 3-4 point and black is flat on the bottom and has a large gap between his two groups. A black stone at W8 in this diagram is oddly placed; it's very loose, doesn't secure the corner, doesn't work well with the bottom left stones and black would still need a couple moves on the bottom to secure the territory. We could just play calmly and take big points elsewhere.

[Diagram]

topazg's idea - cont.

Abydos1: After something like this B5 attacks white+circle on a large scale; it is also a natural extension from the bottom right shimari creating a double wing for black. The gaps on the right might be a little large but all of black's groups have a good base and white+circle is just sitting there on the 4th line not sure what it wants to do.

topazg: I disagree. I think the White stone is now sitting there as a well placed reducing move within Black's framework, and at the same time it is White's sente, with moves around "a" and "b" looking appealing. It's light and flexible on the 4th line, and prevents Black from using the top right approach by White to create a big framework. (EDIT, Updated position)

Abydos1: But this way we're creating weak groups in black's area of influence and all of black's groups are secure; this is also asking black to play around B5 and create a large semi-framework in the bottom right and all of his stones are working well together. Why play this way when we can easily split the right side and create a comfortable group there while preventing any thought of a black moyo in the area?

topazg: If you mean split the right side with the Abydos1 variation below, then it's because that wall for Black works _beautifully_ with his lower edge. We could just play to live directly on the middle right, but that's almost definitely going to end in gote without having made an approach in either corner, which feels too slow. Are you really happy with the "omitting "h" diagram below? To me, the purpose of 8 is to act as a loose capping reduction, which is completely standard play - we can also play it more tightly if we want. Also, there's no weak group in black's area of influence, it's a light stone - for one thing, there's lovely probing aji at "c" and "d" still. I'm also happy approaching at "e" (EDIT: I've updated my choice to "e" because I prefer it's position after White's tenuki) instead of the far approach, but I don't think we can let Black play 6 as below:

Abydos1: I'll agree that W8 acts as a good capping reduction but we're still in the opening here; its too early to think about a reduction when there are plenty of big points on the board. The problem I have with it is it's too small and is just inducing black to play the huge point by enclosing the corner; the exchange is just horrible for us.

topazg: Capping in the opening is very reasonable if that's what the position calls for - I'm not guaranteeing it's in any way the right move here (although I obviously like it), but it certainly isn't a horrible exchange and is very playable :D. I strongly recommend you read "The Direction of Play" if you haven't already. Also, W4 should be at Q14 rather than L17 to work with the other stones.

Abydos1: Reverting the diagram to retain consistency with the comments. W4 at e is a mistake; black can just push and cut.

topazg: You're awfully categorical about mistakes for a 4k, is there any chance you could be a bit less definitive with your comments? If you really were capable of being that precise in the opening you'd be 6d+..

I don't think White should fear the cut at all here as he can just extend and fight. Black's going to have a heavy group in the middle if he plays this way, and White's extension will be able to work nicely with his capping move in the lower right.

Abydos1: There's no reason white should ask to get cut; he's just left with two weak groups. See [ext] eidogo

topazg: Sure, but that's a local corner situation. There are stones elsewhere, and how the bottom right develops is important. See below:

[Diagram]

topazg's actual idea with the cut

topazg: Looks very ok to me ... Even if the original move is overplay, White can play instead at B3 and that works far more appropriately with the top left hoshi stone.

[Diagram]

Omitting H

topazg: Now approaching at "a" gives him a perfect wall to use, likely in exchange for a small corner. There's no great invasion point for White at "b" now as the gap is too small (on either, Black can approach at the point that prevents a 2 space side extension for White). The timing therefore of reducing that corner is very important, and I think Black can fix it before we get the chance if we approach the top right first. You say it isn't a moyo game, but it will be if Black gets this point.

Abydos1: I don't like the direction of W1 here at all; as tapir said of the move 4 suggestion here "It grants a big corner to the opponent while making a strong position on the side in gote", as well as being undercut by B4. I want to play at c in the suggestion diagram so that we can establish a position on the right side which is a natural extension point from a bottom right shimari and backs up any plays in the corner. My main point I've been trying to make is that B7 at j4 is not consistent with a moyo game by black; if it was at the star point it would be more consistent with building a moyo but as it stands its a little far from the bottom right and black is indicating he wants to help the bottom left kakari stone. In your example here B6 is just asking for an invasion around a at which point black can get beautiful thickness.

topazg: Which is exactly why the lower right approach is kikashi ...

[Diagram]

Corner approach with black+circle

Abydos1: With a black stone on the right at black+circle or b black can simply press down if we enter the corner and we can no longer hane at a in this simple variation; even though the gap on the bottom is large black's wall is very solid because of the marked stone.

topazg: I agree with the marked stone this is great for Black, but even with the hane I'm not seeing White's purpose - creating a small amount of territory on the edge in exchange for giving Black a big wall that develops his lower framework? Also, don't underestimate the chances of 2 at 4 - the taisha would be a fun choice for Black with his stones in the top right and lower middle.

Abydos1: I'm trying to illustrate why I think we should play around black+circle with this diagram; if black gets a stone there it makes an approach in the bottom right a lot harder for us to settle and black can easily profit from it. I also think a solid white group on the right negates any chance of a black moyo forming, it's just too big of a gap on the bottom and black's continuations from the 5-3 don't lend themselves toward a moyo.

If something like this is played without a black stone near the marked point we can hane at a and although black does gain good thickness it is a tad far from his bottom left stones to make an efficient moyo; I think we should still have plenty of ways to reduce it before it is solidified.

topazg: I think it's exactly the right distance from the lower left stones. The purpose of thickness is to attack and profit from invasions and stones that stray too close. Having a wide gap is precisely how to make profit from thickness. Also, the hane at "a" is just bad for White even without a Black stone there (see below):

[Diagram]

Joseki, but not here!

topazg: How exactly is White meant to handle Black pushing at B1?

Abydos1: [ext] eidogo has a couple variations listed or [ext] josekipedia.

topazg: I've updated the left diagram to a standard sequence. After White plays "a" and Black plays "b", Black's result is globally dominating the board. With both the lower left stones working really well with "b" (which now could be somewhere else instead) and B9 working well with the top right, both marked black+circle stones have come alive ... just how is this good for White? Just because something is a local joseki does not mean it is correct play in any given fuseki. Beware of following joseki blindly.


Black K4 variations

[Diagram]

White q5 jump

Abydos1: I'm leaving this diagram here as reference to black's original move at k4 (marked stone). This isn't looking good with the new move since black is fairly secure on both the right and left sides and as such can fight more aggressively against any play on the bottom having two relatively secure groups.

topazg: I'm not keen on approaching so close to Black's position here - with the sequence up to 5 you leave Black with sente and a big corner, and a reasonably well settled position. "a" gives Black a lot of points, and "b" threatens to attack on a large scale while developing the top right nicely. White shouldn't be ending eyeless with a semi-heavy group in gote here.

Abydos1: The a and b areas look miai here and a black play at a still has a weakness on the left side (and the black+circle-a relationship is somewhat loose). Well if black wants to play on the bottom it'd probably continue similar to the diagram below at which point we have sente.

[Diagram]

White q5 jump - cont.


W6 Suggestions

  • Abydos1: c6 (a). Standard response to a keima approach, the bottom is uninteresting with the low black stone on the right side.
  • Saurus I agree with c6.
  • dave: c6 (a) looks good but I'll give h3 (b) as an alternative.
  • lackita: I'm liking a as well, but another alternative is c.

Time to move. jvloenen chooses C6 (a). A local and quiet response. D6 (c) is gote (we need to close the site with C9 or C10 giving more territory in return). I think sente is more important. H3 (b) is on the wrong site, in between B3 and B5. Saurus, please give a suggestion, even if you agree with a suggestion done before, just like dave and lackita did. Where are the other soldiers???

  • Saurus My suggestion was above, just before Dave's... ;)
  • Saurus Oh, I see what you mean - a different suggestion to make alternatives available. OK - will do. Sorry about the confusion - I thought you meant I didn't give a suggestion at all!

I'll also edit the page with a message to all soldiers!


W4 Suggestions

  • Saurus d16 (a). Then, if black makes top shimari (q17), we can k16, or if black makes the bottom shimari (r4), we can r9.
  • schEkkEr e16 (b) to stress the top. If bP16 we can split the right side (Q10?)
  • dave: p16 (c). Let black decide which corner they want.
  • Abydos1: d17 (d). Make the left larger see what black wants to do next.

jvloenen chooses D16 (a). Get a starting position in the last empty corner. Let's see the type of game black want to play. Suggestions b and d are good too. P16 (c) is very difficult. In general playing in an empty corner is the biggest move.

  • tapir: About c - Black played this move in the last game. It grants a big corner to the opponent while making a strong position on the side in gote. This strength would be valuable with a stone backing it in the corner, but playing it in gote while the corner is open gives Black not only the opportunity to take a third corner, but to take it in the way which best takes the white strength on the side into account.

W2 Suggestions

  • thanatos13: since the opponent wants the right and less influence, let's get the left and lots of influence with (a) at d6. Don't worry, the 4-6 is playable.
  • dave: D16, so black won't get too much at the top.
  • schEkkEr: d4, when he plays on the right e16

tapir chooses D4 (c). Flexible, easy to understand move. I want to see how Black develops from B1. About every proposal is valid at this stage, though I would not choose D6 because I am not sure what we achieve by playing it.


This is a copy of the living page "Wu Ren Go 3 / White" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2011 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.
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