Get Strong at Joseki problem discussion

    Keywords: Joseki, Problem, Question

What makes us take more interest in one go problem than another?

                                             By:  EricOsman

I think one aspect is if we can look at a problem and say to ourselves:

            Yeah, that comes up in my games.  What am I
            supposed to do in that situation ?

As an illustration of this phenomenon, I present a problem and then some discussion that leads up to the problem.

Please note whether your interest in the problem increases after you see the discussion.

First, the problem:[1]

[Diagram]

Vulgar play by White

All of White's moves W1 - W7 are vulgar? How should Black seize the initiative?



The discussion to whet your appetite

Certainly we've all run into players who like to open on the 5-4 point.

[Diagram]

Depends on "the ladder"

Let's say white invades with W2 and Black presses with B3.

Although White a is common, if "the ladder" is favorable, it is better to play White 4 than a [2] .

If "the ladder" favors Black but White plays W4 instead of a , Black may play hane at B5 [3] .

This sets up the opportunity for White to play vulgarly.

Question: Does the book show how White should respond to B5 when the ladder is in White's favor ? Problem 13 shows how Black should play if White cross-cuts after B5, but it doesn't make clear whether White should cross-cut.[4]

White tries to bust out

[Diagram]

White plays vulgarly

Now we have our original problem, which is what Black should do to seize the initiative after this vulgarity on White's part.

Care to guess where Black should play ?


[Diagram]

Inviting suicide

B1 is the correct first move, but W2 is suicidal for White.

Can you see how Black cleans up here ?


[Diagram]

White makes an awful mistake

Black peeps at B2, White connects at W3 to avoid double atari, Black cross-cuts at B4, and the white lump is in danger.


[Diagram]

White caught in a loose ladder

The only move with a snowball's chance in hell of getting White out of this mess is atari at W1. Black extends and White must connect at W3. Black now captures White with a loose ladder.



What White should have done after Black 1

[Diagram]

How White should avoid the loose ladder

White's best defense is immediately to take a black liberty with W2.

Next, B3 is an important forcing move.

Black B5 gives White sente. However, when the time is right, Black can come back and capture two white stones in sente by squeezing at a , making Black even thicker.

Grauniad: Why can't White play W6 at b, capturing two Black stones and saving all his stones?

Charles It's a small move, and Black has no need to answer: not worth losing sente.



[1] Get Strong at Joseki 2 problem 12.

[2] Get Strong at Joseki 2 Joseki 3.

[3] Get Strong at Joseki 2 problem 9.

[4] Charles Matthews: There is a non-ladder joseki. I don't know whether it is in that book. It hasn't yet been posted here at SL, I think.

[Diagram]

White cuts, ladder bad for Black

There is likely to be a complex fight in the centre now; and White must make time to live in the corner.

Neither GSAJ nor SL is a reference for joseki, of course.

In the past the legendary Sensei whose influence is felt around here, but who is never actually seen by the deshis, has grumbled about some of the questions posed.

Eric Osman: Please clarify "grumbled", as so many possible meanings come to mind. It could mean the sensei is challenged by the questions because even the sensei doesn't have an answer yet. It could mean the sensei is challenged by the questions because although the sensei has an answer, it's hard to explain to us. It could mean the sensei feels irritated at having been abruptly wakened from a delicious nap with such questions.

Charles My personal feeling - and this is as the deshi who with Andre posts most of the joseki pages here - is that SL isn't a reference for joseki. There are other resources for that (Kogos', Gobase are two available ones). The legendary Sensei therefore should take the 'I know what you need, rather than what you want' attitude to joseki questions. I normally base answers on what I can find by a database search, rather than posting stuff out of yet another book. You know, Kiseido (and other) books aren't 100% reliable; no book is safe against containing obsolescent sequences; and being bookish about go isn't an end in itself.

BACK [4]


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