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Saurus Soldiers, please leave a new suggestion for every move. Even if you agree with the move given by the previous soldier, leave a new suggestion too. Captains may not choose their own moves, so choices are important!!!
: Suggestions
: Suggestions
jvloenen chooses E11 (b). K12 (a) tries to capture an important stone, and to me the peep doesn't seem to accomplish much. F10 (c) tries to capture one stone. It is true we have invested a lot of stones and are strong, so why not capture both stones? D11 (d) is a looser move, and I don't see how it helps on the side.
eozberk, please suggest something else even if you support a suggestion given before.
: Suggestions
Abydos1: Black at a and we capture 3 stones while giving away the entire center.
JoelR: I thought after abcd we secured the upper left, and leave Black's stones struggling. But I like Abydos's follow up, below
.
tapir chooses F12(b). Tough choice. Basically I don't like to force Black to extend by playing at F10 (a) now. And I would extend there as Black, also if Black tenukies with , I would capture (because it makes a big center territory in sente.) There is a diagram where Abydos commented
at
and we are in trouble, but we have a similar line just with forcing at F10 first given by joelr. However, if Black decides to give us the top stones back, we don't want to strengthen them inside. (Our five stones on the top are not weak, because Black is lacking liberties.)
The general idea is, to either take back on the top left while Black still isn't alive inside or letting him capture two stones and take a big center. However, it pretty complicated for me as well so I may be wrong.
: Suggestions
tapir chooses G12(a). Sacrificing the stone in gote is not enough and there would have been other territorial moves of at least this size on the board (which may even be sente). It is a cutting stone and should not be thrown away too easily, and even if we sacrifice later, Black will now need a stone more on balance to capture. If Black answers at b, I believe this is a fight we can well afford and where Black survival is far from secure. Forcing Black to make a ponnuki with c is not achieving anything as Black can easily live on the inside with the strength of the ponnuki or even if white tries to rescue c, push once, atari, connect... White ends with two cutting points and is unable to defend both.
: Suggestions
tapir chooses H10(b). Takeo Kajiwara says, we should listen our stones. I feel like I hear G11 crying, it tries to do something but fails so alone. H10 is the only move (even if we end upscrewed in the upcoming fight) it makes G11 feel important as only a cutting stone can, G12 forces Black to connect, J14 may well be sente, but a sente which does not help us, but Black in the fight.
: Suggestions
tapir chooses G11 (b). I don't know how long we will last in this fight with only two active players making proposals. F11 forces black to strengthen himself which is what Black wants to do anyway - without really making territory in the process. This leaves G11, which likely leads to a very violent fight. I would have been reluctant to start it right now, but now there is no way back. (+ I like it more the longer I look at it.)
: Suggestions
jvloenen chooses L9 (a). We attach to create possibilities. We don't need to settle our stones anymore I think. Attacking is a good idea however. E10 (b) is too small I think. It just protects some territory around C8. We need to play more active after black got 53. M6 (c) doesn't do much. It is no severe attack on the lower side. And if black wants to close with a move around M6, we can play Q5.
: Suggestions
jvloenen chooses J7 (c). Help both and
, and prepare for cutting of
and making a deep invasion to the right, which seems miai. G8 (a) doesn't help our stones much, nor does it take or destroy territory. It will turn out to be dame later on, or (if we get E9 for instance) the territory will be too small for a gote move. L10 (b) seems to be too slow. After the 52/53 exchange our territory around F14 is gone, so we need to be more agressive and destroy more of black's territory. For a deeper invasion, we better prepare first.
: Suggestions
jvloenen chooses J5(b). J8(b) makes a heavy group. We do not know if we want to run, to makes eyes or to sacrifice yet, so we better do not add stones to this group. H6(a) feels better, but that's too easy for black. So J5 it is, although it is better to not attach a stone. (J6 would be better.)
: Suggestions
Tapir chooses F5 (a) G13 c tries too hard making territory where we basically forced the opponent to walk into our moyo. Any fight here, even if successful in fencing in some territory will weaken our important J10 stone. L5 b is an invasion not a reduction as is any stone beyond the stone line (which isn't linked back). With no good way to make eyes i believe it is an overplay (I would expect Black to play a keima cutting us off, and complicated fight next which we could not afford to lose). The leaves a it works together with J10, although I am not sure that it achieves much. I am surprised that nobody considered calmer moves according to the principle of mutual damage by walking in further or R16 which was considered sente last move.
: Suggestions
Tapir chooses J10 (a) O5 will lead to a weak and running center group, i.e. solidified black territory and gently reduced white prospects in the upper left. Black will follow when we run there. R16(c) is huge, but I am not sure that it is necessarily sente when two big frameworks are at stake in the center, Black can not settle the corner in sente anyway, so it will likely remain as sente for us - as our trouble was the huge black prospects not the amount of territory black has, I choose J10(a).
: Suggestions
Tapir chooses (a) Only move, indeed. Black says they want to create aji, but actually they may be removing aji. (Black at
not available anymore and White anyway not to capture the single stone in gote anytime soon.)
Suggestions
Abydos1 chooses F16 (a). Since tapir & jvloenen seem to still be away I'll go ahead and finish up the corner here. Connecting is the only option; c is too early, we have to defend the double atari first and the aji of black c is not that bad right now (try reading it out for several moves). b doesn't work because black can escape with the double atari and pulling out c.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses D15 (a). A local move is necessary and E16 (b), giving a ponnuki, is too easy for black.
btw. this is my last move for the next three weeks.
Possible continuation
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses B15 (a). Only move.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses F18 (a). F17 (b) feels a little slack, as we're strong around K17. J10(c) is a very big move. Much bigger than S15 (suggested at move 38). It is not tenuki time yet however, as the loss in the corner would be tremendous.
Suggestions
tapir chooses E17 (a). Only move. (I guess the keima F17 would have been an alternative, but as we decided the way to go at the last move already, we can as well stick to it.)
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses C16 (a). D17 (b) builds a wall on the wrong side as Dave pointed out. S15 (c) is interesting. I never though about this move. It seems to work, although we need to be carefull not to play a variation getting a few extra points which end with gote for us. Currently the sente value of S15 seems smaller than the black continuation in the corner (if we play S15, black will ignore and play C16), so C16 it is.
Suggestions
tapir chooses J15 (a). No real alternatives, so no need to wait for more proposals and jvloenen to decide. Capturing directly may be considered as alternative in other circumstances.
eozberk: Hello everyone, I just joined your team, I think it will be fun.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses C10 (a). I think the R4 corner is alive, so both S3 (c) and S5 (d) are too slow. Therefore we play in the largest open space. I agree the position in relation to C6 is (too) low. This move in relation to D16 is fine though. D13 (b) is not good here. This is a moyo based move (the side is still open at C11 and it doesn't help the corner either). C16 (e) is a good move too. If we want to invade or reduce around tenger later on, I like a white stone on the left side. Therefore I choose a, not e. Q5 (f) is a move we like to play soon. It seems sentish for us (black will not answer immediately, will play other sente moves first). As black Q5 isn't sente either, I think we can play a now, and hopefully f later on. O5 (k) is too greedy, it will help black. We better use the threat to cut to connect f in sente.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses Q4 (c). P2 (a) aiming to connect the useless Q6 stone (black gets the corner of will fix his shape on the lower side) doesn't make sense to me. If P2 it must be followed by O3 or O2. Both are failures for us. Q5 (b) a ko? The ko has no follow-up, so black has enough threats (pushing at O17, a ponnuki at K15). So we better connect now, and treat connecting the Q6 stone and capturing the P3 stone as miai.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses Q3 (b).O5 (a), P5 (c), Q4 (d) and R5 (e) all force black to fix the cutting point (for instance at O3, Q3, N3 and Q3). Next I don't see a good follow-up move, we will be left with just a bunch of stones. So I choose b to get some eye-space. We will be sealed in the corner however -which isn't good- and we cannot sacrifice the corner stones anymore.
I wonder why no one suggested cutting at Q3 now? With the block against the push at Q4, and the possibility to capture
in a ladder we would get nice forcing moves to settle our group and get out into the black influence (if black captures the cutting stones, we extend first to get the forcing move at O5 and get forcing moves at Q3 and P2 which would be good. If black plays Q3 we capture
and leave the cornerstones for aji).
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses Q6 (d). I agree with your analysis. P5 (a) creates a solid group aiming at the pincer. With black 23 in place it's more like creating a heavy group however. Q3 (b) will be followed by P5, Q4 and probably P2 (black has nothing to fear on the outside). We'll have a sealed group, and maybe even a sealed dead group. I never thought about O3 (c). Very interesting at first sight, aiming at cutting points. Black will probably push through at Q4 and P5, Q3, N4 will follow. If black next play around N6, it looks like we have an one-eye group. So Q6 it is, aiming at the other suggestions later on.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses P4 (a).We're under heavy attack, so tenuki is not an option now (unless we think we cannot live of course). K14 (d) is just too small. Q2 (b) feels too passive. The other options are all joseki. P4 is the most flexible move, creating the most cutting points. (We're under attack so cutting points are fine. We will sacrifice to get sabaki if needed).
Suggestions
I admit that I'm a bit at a loss of giving something better; as wR4 would give Black the opportunity to get a wall pointing towards the left which would be bad too. So I propose a deep reduction move at n4 (c).
jvloenen chooses R4 (d). I think we all agree to play inside the black moyo is best. Inside the black moyo, we like to build a stable group as fast as possible, so a third line move is best. R4 (d) is such a move. It's the standard approach to the P3 stone too.
D11 (a) is on the wrong side of the board. Q5 (b) will be answered at R4 and we will have an eyeless floating group. N4 (c) will be answered at R4 too, giving black lots of points and we will have a floating group in return. L5 (f) will force black to fix the bottom at M4 or (again) play R4. I don't see a good follow-up for this move. K14 (e) is not big enough, black will ignore and close the corner.
Abydos1: I think after ,
at
(or one space further) might be playable.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses J16 (b). This is one of the two possible tenuki points in this double hane variation as black cannot capture K15 in a ladder. (The other point the normal continuation white O17,O18,P18,N18,R17,tenuki which will not be played anymore).
Defend or invade? As I don't see a good point for black fixing the M3 gap, the open corner and the right side with a single move, I think we can defend. It's big, and to be honest I don't like the two invasion points suggested. J15 (a) is about the same. It leaves more posibilities for black later on.
R10 (c) is too close to the black wall. We want to play the R16-S15 exchange some time, so if black pushes us from below, we can create a stable group by extending to R13, and the exchange feels like killing our own group. With the obvious exchanges, black has a nine stone wall and will never even think about pushing at R12.
Q9 (b) is a fourth line stone. Aiming to build influence (building influence inside the black influence doesn't make much sense) or make it easier to jump out if there is not enough eye space (there is a lot of space however, and jumping doesn't make points), so we don't want to play on the fourth line here.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses L17 (a). Only move (Tenuki is always an option?). Note black decided to not push at O17 before this atari. If black will push and cut now we can just capture the cutting stone. (In the normal variation we cannot, as black will atari at O17).
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses K15 (b). The double hane is very powerfull, let's be brave. I have never seen K16 (a), it feels too timid. K17 (c) is too timid anyway (you can give non-local suggestions too - tenuki is always an option; if you suggest an invasion anywhere for instance, or want to play a sente move in between elsewhere, we can discuss it in relation to the suggestions given).
Suggestions
tapir chooses L16 (b) This seems to be one of two proposed moves (b and d), as I understand schekker to propose b as well. d feels like passing (not exactly, but a stone there would only reduce some aji after the hane, which we will never be able to play after letting black get ahead here), remains b as the only move. I don't think cutting totally changes the game - black has more than one move to answer there anyway. Please reserve a..f letters for genuine proposals and use other letters for commenting on variations you don't propose (k..z or something like that).
Suggestions
tapir chooses M17 (a). Only move. No need to wait.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses N17 (a). Abydos is right: O17 (b) can be played if we need to hurry to play on the right side, giving black a nice position on the top in return (Black N16, R10, N17, S17). I think the black formation is open enough, so we follow the normal sequence and take points. S16 (c) and R16 (d) is endgame play, expanding the corner. We want to invade the right side, so leave it as open as possible. N18 (e) is too slow.
Suggestions
tapir chooses P17 (a). Q16 (b) is probably the move to be considered next. If one doesn't intend to cut one should not play it. (s. OneTwoThree) If white cuts one possibility for black is shown below, which is similar and I believe better for black than the expected follow up from a. Other variants feature white living in the corner (in gote) and leaving a weak center group. As this will help black build a framework, I did not choose b. But I don't feel qualified to say this is definitely bad as well (which I would say for for c to e. Though after white e, black a, black has to be careful with the cut at b.)
discussion
topazg: How do we a) plan on dealing with the taisha, and more concerningly to me, b) if Black presses down in sente and builds a framework:
topazg: I personally think this looks ok for us. If black plays 3 at "a", then White at "b", ,
seems good as the ladder on
works for White. I'd be very happy with this variation for us.
Andy: Dont Peep At Bamboo Joints
topazg: Yeah, but it is joseki, and was used to force (it takes a key point preventing White playing at
at that point, else Black cuts) so that Black gets the corner.
topazg: Maybe this is too loose by Black, but it feels intimidating. "a" and "b" exchange could be ok, but the purpose of the hoshi stones is to build influence and develop well on the sides. This whole joseki seems to undermine D16 (I'll pull out a reference for this if anyone wants), so I think we want to develop the top, but of course without starting to build Black a good framework. This is why I chose the other approach, as this feels a bit nice for Black.
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses Q17 (g). It is good to see the nice discussion below!
No empty corners anymore and no urgent moves, so it's time for a second class move: create or prevent a shimari. Two possibilities. In the lower corner it is not easy to find the correct point. Enter the corner? Create a wall? Push black into a low position on the lower part of the board? We don't know yet.
Preventing a shimari is gote in general, so black will have the first move in the other corner. As black doesn't have a perfect continuation on the lower side (as you all noted) I prefer to play in the upper-right corner.
As P16 (b) gives black a lot of easy points (this moves is a local loss) I prefer the normal good move on Q17. Both sides get good positions on this part of the bord. If black takes the last corner, we can create a group in between the two facing walls (and the gap between and
remains).
topazg: That makes sense. I'm trying to deprive Black of being able to build a large corner where he doesn't fear a corner invasion due to resulting thickness. It feels like after Black has built a shimari and side extension, P5 is a logical reduction, so if induces that position anyway it can't be outright bad - on top of that, if Black can find a move (such as my concern B) that means White has no options other than inside the corner, it felt like a good way of keeping Black's development small. We'll see what Black does down there :)
topazg's idea
topazg: I'm not so keen on "c". It feels like the purpose of White's game is to use the position he's created towards a moyo idea as Saurus has said. I don't think much of Black's choice of upper right and lower right stone either, and so I'd probably play a high approach to the lower right as a forcing move, and then a close approach to the upper right with "b", to prevent Black's framework from becoming too strong and work on building strength on the upper side. This way, Black "1" is struggling to develop well on the right side because of the light position of White "8", and White "10" can then develop the upper side quickly.
Abydos1: I don't feel is good;
is already the natural move to play to close the bottom right but after that there's no moyo on the bottom and the gap between
and
is large; black's stones end up not working too well together. If we want to play in the corner then do it but not with some distant approach that just induces black to complete the shimari like he already wants and black can look to play on the right side to make it hard for us to settle that stone. I'm not seeing any black moyo developing here, the stones just are not working together for black; now had
been played one to the right on the star point there was a definite possibility of a moyo especially if we tried to jump into the corner at the standard e. As for the top right, b seems playable but may let black take a nice corner too easily. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with g though and we have the ladder to the bottom left if things get complicated. I think a move around c is a good direction because a black move there makes entering the bottom right harder for us (see diagram below). c is also the direction black would want to extend from a bottom right shimari.
topazg: But this is a moyo game, is not where Black would want to play. with his position at the bottom, he can be very happy playing at
- any White corner invasion will give Black incredible influence. Likewise, for White to approach at "g" gives Black the ability to sit straight on top of the White position, working well with the right hand side and negating a lot of the influence of the hoshi stone at D16. This is textbook stuff from the Direction of Play.
Abydos1: I'd argue that after it's not a moyo game; black decided to play closer to
to strengthen their group there and
is not positioned well for a moyo on the bottom. The natural continuation from
is the shimari at the 3-4 point and black is flat on the bottom and has a large gap between his two groups. A black stone at
in this diagram is oddly placed; it's very loose, doesn't secure the corner, doesn't work well with the bottom left stones and black would still need a couple moves on the bottom to secure the territory. We could just play calmly and take big points elsewhere.
Abydos1: After something like this attacks
on a large scale; it is also a natural extension from the bottom right shimari creating a double wing for black. The gaps on the right might be a little large but all of black's groups have a good base and
is just sitting there on the 4th line not sure what it wants to do.
topazg: I disagree. I think the White stone is now sitting there as a well placed reducing move within Black's framework, and at the same time it is White's sente, with moves around "a" and "b" looking appealing. It's light and flexible on the 4th line, and prevents Black from using the top right approach by White to create a big framework. (EDIT, Updated position)
Abydos1: But this way we're creating weak groups in black's area of influence and all of black's groups are secure; this is also asking black to play around and create a large semi-framework in the bottom right and all of his stones are working well together. Why play this way when we can easily split the right side and create a comfortable group there while preventing any thought of a black moyo in the area?
topazg: If you mean split the right side with the Abydos1 variation below, then it's because that wall for Black works _beautifully_ with his lower edge. We could just play to live directly on the middle right, but that's almost definitely going to end in gote without having made an approach in either corner, which feels too slow. Are you really happy with the "omitting "h" diagram below? To me, the purpose of 8 is to act as a loose capping reduction, which is completely standard play - we can also play it more tightly if we want. Also, there's no weak group in black's area of influence, it's a light stone - for one thing, there's lovely probing aji at "c" and "d" still. I'm also happy approaching at "e" (EDIT: I've updated my choice to "e" because I prefer it's position after White's tenuki) instead of the far approach, but I don't think we can let Black play 6 as below:
Abydos1: I'll agree that acts as a good capping reduction but we're still in the opening here; its too early to think about a reduction when there are plenty of big points on the board. The problem I have with it is it's too small and is just inducing black to play the huge point by enclosing the corner; the exchange is just horrible for us.
topazg: Capping in the opening is very reasonable if that's what the position calls for - I'm not guaranteeing it's in any way the right move here (although I obviously like it), but it certainly isn't a horrible exchange and is very playable :D. I strongly recommend you read "The Direction of Play" if you haven't already. Also, should be at Q14 rather than L17 to work with the other stones.
Abydos1: Reverting the diagram to retain consistency with the comments. at e is a mistake; black can just push and cut.
topazg: You're awfully categorical about mistakes for a 4k, is there any chance you could be a bit less definitive with your comments? If you really were capable of being that precise in the opening you'd be 6d+..
I don't think White should fear the cut at all here as he can just extend and fight. Black's going to have a heavy group in the middle if he plays this way, and White's extension will be able to work nicely with his capping move in the lower right.
Abydos1: There's no reason white should ask to get cut; he's just left with two weak groups. See eidogo
topazg: Sure, but that's a local corner situation. There are stones elsewhere, and how the bottom right develops is important. See below:
topazg: Looks very ok to me ... Even if the original move is overplay, White can play instead at and that works far more appropriately with the top left hoshi stone.
topazg: Now approaching at "a" gives him a perfect wall to use, likely in exchange for a small corner. There's no great invasion point for White at "b" now as the gap is too small (on either, Black can approach at the point that prevents a 2 space side extension for White). The timing therefore of reducing that corner is very important, and I think Black can fix it before we get the chance if we approach the top right first. You say it isn't a moyo game, but it will be if Black gets this point.
Abydos1: I don't like the direction of here at all; as tapir said of the move 4 suggestion here "It grants a big corner to the opponent while making a strong position on the side in gote", as well as being undercut by
. I want to play at c in the suggestion diagram so that we can establish a position on the right side which is a natural extension point from a bottom right shimari and backs up any plays in the corner. My main point I've been trying to make is that
at j4 is not consistent with a moyo game by black; if it was at the star point it would be more consistent with building a moyo but as it stands its a little far from the bottom right and black is indicating he wants to help the bottom left kakari stone. In your example here
is just asking for an invasion around a at which point black can get beautiful thickness.
topazg: Which is exactly why the lower right approach is kikashi ...
Abydos1: With a black stone on the right at or b black can simply press down if we enter the corner and we can no longer hane at a in this simple variation; even though the gap on the bottom is large black's wall is very solid because of the marked stone.
topazg: I agree with the marked stone this is great for Black, but even with the hane I'm not seeing White's purpose - creating a small amount of territory on the edge in exchange for giving Black a big wall that develops his lower framework? Also, don't underestimate the chances of 2 at 4 - the taisha would be a fun choice for Black with his stones in the top right and lower middle.
Abydos1: I'm trying to illustrate why I think we should play around with this diagram; if black gets a stone there it makes an approach in the bottom right a lot harder for us to settle and black can easily profit from it. I also think a solid white group on the right negates any chance of a black moyo forming, it's just too big of a gap on the bottom and black's continuations from the 5-3 don't lend themselves toward a moyo.
If something like this is played without a black stone near the marked point we can hane at a and although black does gain good thickness it is a tad far from his bottom left stones to make an efficient moyo; I think we should still have plenty of ways to reduce it before it is solidified.
topazg: I think it's exactly the right distance from the lower left stones. The purpose of thickness is to attack and profit from invasions and stones that stray too close. Having a wide gap is precisely how to make profit from thickness. Also, the hane at "a" is just bad for White even without a Black stone there (see below):
topazg: How exactly is White meant to handle Black pushing at ?
Abydos1: eidogo has a couple variations listed or
josekipedia.
topazg: I've updated the left diagram to a standard sequence. After White plays "a" and Black plays "b", Black's result is globally dominating the board. With both the lower left stones working really well with "b" (which now could be somewhere else instead) and working well with the top right, both marked
stones have come alive ... just how is this good for White? Just because something is a local joseki does not mean it is correct play in any given fuseki. Beware of following joseki blindly.
Abydos1: I'm leaving this diagram here as reference to black's original move at k4 (marked stone). This isn't looking good with the new move since black is fairly secure on both the right and left sides and as such can fight more aggressively against any play on the bottom having two relatively secure groups.
topazg: I'm not keen on approaching so close to Black's position here - with the sequence up to 5 you leave Black with sente and a big corner, and a reasonably well settled position. "a" gives Black a lot of points, and "b" threatens to attack on a large scale while developing the top right nicely. White shouldn't be ending eyeless with a semi-heavy group in gote here.
Abydos1: The a and b areas look miai here and a black play at a still has a weakness on the left side (and the -a relationship is somewhat loose). Well if black wants to play on the bottom it'd probably continue similar to the diagram below at which point we have sente.
Suggestions
Time to move. jvloenen chooses C6 (a). A local and quiet response. D6 (c) is gote (we need to close the site with C9 or C10 giving more territory in return). I think sente is more important. H3 (b) is on the wrong site, in between and
.
Saurus, please give a suggestion, even if you agree with a suggestion done before, just like dave and lackita did. Where are the other soldiers???
I'll also edit the page with a message to all soldiers!
Suggestions
jvloenen chooses D16 (a). Get a starting position in the last empty corner. Let's see the type of game black want to play. Suggestions b and d are good too. P16 (c) is very difficult. In general playing in an empty corner is the biggest move.
Suggestions
tapir chooses D4 (c). Flexible, easy to understand move. I want to see how Black develops from . About every proposal is valid at this stage, though I would not choose D6 because I am not sure what we achieve by playing it.