3-4 point high approach one-space low pincer attachment noseki
Dieter: When my opponent played , I knew it couldn't be right, but I think I did wrong myself.
xela: I'm sure that this diagram is in fact joseki. Unfortunately I can't tell you any more except that there are many many variations!
Bill: I just did a search on gobase of the pattern through
and got only 13 games. That's a big clue that it's not joseki, but a situational play.
Bill: When is it playable? In all the games Black had something in the lower left corner or side. It might be a wall, an enclosure, a 4-4 stone, or an approach from the left side. In one case it was a pincer.
White has sente and two forcing moves. Perhaps using the sente to play c now is honte.
While I'm writing this I'm starting to like better what I did.
AndyPierce: I seem to recall seeing this... I'll check tonight. Suspect that this is fine for white and that it's important to play before
and not to play
at a instead.
Ishida's joseki dictionary, volume 2, gives the following a one diamond (= acceptable joseki) rating:
fractic: White can force with 1 and then secure the corner and an outside connection in sente with 3. I've also seen a pro game with at a leading to a large scale fight.
Bill: The most common reply is , which is covered above. However,
also occurs, with the above continuation.
Dieter: OK I'll take a fresh look at it, asking my fundamental questions, replacing all joseki knowledge.
- Who has the corner territory? Black, 10+
- Who has influence to the left? White.
- Who has influence to the top? Black, but not as strong.
- Who has influence to the centre? White.
- Are there any weaknesses? White is very strong. Black is alive.
- Who has the initiative? Black. Both have invested 7 stones.
So, it is White's superior influence (scope for development) against Black's secure 10 point territory and sente. I think it is close to being an equal result but I prefer White and I imagine most pros do.
Bill: I think that both
and
are mistakes.
is better at
, and
is better at
(or as a hane at the head of two stones).
- Who has the corner territory? White,5+
- Who has influence to the left? Black.
- Who has influence to the top? White, but not as strong.
- Who has influence to the centre? Black.
- Are there any weaknesses? Both are close to alive. White has two forcing moves and has no real weakness at the circled point due to Black's bad shape.
- Who has the initiative? White. Both have invested 7 stones.
So, compared to the previous position, reversing colors, White is worse off in points but better off in top influence, while Black's influence is a little mitigated by the forcing moves but his group is already alive with more points.
I'd say this is also a little better for Black, just like the previous diagram is for White.
Bill: Is
necessary?
Dieter: Oh! And I claimed to be good at L&D?
fractic: How about throwing this joseki into the comparison aswell. The result is quite similar.
fractic: Black has the endgame sente move at a so black has about five more points then white in the corner. Further he has very strong influence on the left side. It looks as though white also has good influence on the top. But there is a weakpoint at b where black can play and easily show that white in fact doesn't have so much influence. Since white also has sente here I think it's about equal compared to the result from the other joseki.