Kee Rules Of Go/ Feedback 2

Sub-page of KeeRulesOfGo

Robert Pauli: How about this one, totally unrelated to repetition:

[Diagram]

B+2, not W+4 (22x3 board)



Black gets six points in her confirmation, as expected, but, in his, White squeezes further six points out of one end, despite each being seki under Japanese rules (without throw-in).

Wilton Kee:

With this knowledge, Black would avoid such situation by giving atari at 2x4. After White's response, White would be unable to breakdown any seki.

In other words, your proposed position would not be a "scored position".

Robert Pauli:

But if Black throws in, it's B+1, not B+2. Please spare me a modified position in which Black can't afford this.

Wilton Kee:

White cannot pass if Black throws in, otherwise Black can break the seki and occupy the whole corner. So it's still B+2.

Robert Pauli:

Sorry, it's not B+2 if Black throws in one (putting two in atari, to be sure :-) and White, of course, captures it before they stop:

  • Black still counts six points in her confirmation,
  • but White counts four plus one (before-end) captive in his.

(Your F2c deducts the latter from Black's score, I know, but let me prefer to avoid negative scores.)

White can't squeeze out extra six this time because Black starts in White's confirmation and only has to bother with one (now for-free) throw-in.

Wilton Kee:

Isn't it 3 unoccupied intersection and 1 captive for White? It should still be B+2.

Robert Pauli:

Hmm, don't quite get you. As I understand your rules, this (after Black's throw-in and White's capture of it)

[Diagram]

B+1 (one black captive)



will be counted as six points for Black (circles) and four points for White (squares), plus the captive Black threw in: B+1. Left and right end adds nothing to the score since nobody can make two eyes there if his opponent starts.


Robert Pauli:

In case you fell in love with pass for ko, here's James Davies' position from 1996-06-15 on RGG (my trim):

[Diagram]

11x4 - not W+1?



Guess most people will feel that this should be W+1 under Japanese rules, but in fact it isn't. Under the 1989 version the white stones are dead because intervening play clears no ko bans:

  • Black takes upper ko,
  • White secures eye,
  • Black takes lower ko,
  • and White may not take back upper ko, as before game end.

Since the black stones on the right end are dead too, this either is B+15 or B+43, depending on if own dead stones spoil territory or not.

Under Kee Rules (June 2005 version :-), Black gets 15 points on the left side, no matter who starts, but White can't get 16 points on the right side if Black starts and benefits from pass for ko, as Kee Rules now seem to have.

Wilton Kee:

Please note that Kee Rules aren't simply adopting "pass for ko" in confirmation phase:

D.2 A player may not occupy an intersection such that any subset of its group appeared in any position ever encountered by her successor in the same phase unless a ban-deleting pass was played after all such encounters.

In this case, after the fourth move "White takes back upper ko", the group of the newly occupied intersection is just exactly the single White stone just placed. Since such White stone (or even its subset in general) has appeared in the initial position in the confirmation phase, it is prohibited. This aligns with Japanese scoring system.

Robert Pauli:

I noticed that you don't just use pass for ko. Your pass for patch duplication is interesting. However, it includes the former and therefore leads to exactly the (d)effect Davies was pointing at. Sorry, but being in accordance with current Japanese scoring in this very case is nothing to be proud of.


Robert Pauli:

Isn't your your generalization of pass for ko (D2) denying snap back (after end)?

[Diagram]

A tie, not W+5



In Black's confirmation White will capture the black loner and Black may not take back due to D2, granting Black only two points.

Wilton Kee:

You are right. I am thinking of treating stone just placed plus its direct neighborhood to replace whole board for ko consideration in confirmation phase.

Robert Pauli:

Why stop cycles other than ko in the confirmation at all? If my opponent can prevent my two eyes by any means, be it cycling, then it seems to me that I don't deserve to count territory there.


This is a copy of the living page "Kee Rules Of Go/ Feedback 2" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2009 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.
[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]
StartingPoints
ReferenceSection
About