Progress Rate
HoligorAsks: Suppose I take some lessons from a stronger player.
What is the reasonable time before one can improve? How many lessons should I take?
Currently I am IGS 1k* and KGS 2d. Suppose my goal is to become IGS 2d* and KGS 4d.
On the other hand, suppose I want to teach somebody. Suppose I take a 3k-5k student. How fast can I help him to become stronger by 2 stones?
Karl Knechtel: Up until now I've found that an expectation of one stone gain per month is reasonable, and I'm not getting any explicit lessons from stronger players - just SL. On the other hand, I'm only reaching into that "3k-5k student" range now; it may well be much slower going after that point. Also, many people experience plateaus at various points.
Charles For most players, a two-stone difference is like always playing at your best form: effectively not making any serious mistakes you'd recognise. Either you become much more consistent, or you acquire knowledge enough to get only into positions which are in the top range of those you currently get.
Hicham: Most of the time, there is also the rule of diminshing returns. The better you get, the slower the progress will be. i wish I could still advance one stone each month like it did the first 18 months. Since then the progress has been a lot slower. More like 1 stone every six months. This probably means I should study harder or get some lessons. If only I didn't have to work or was single;)
AJP: dunno about this. At my current 4k IGS rating I see things I was doing before that weren't just "mistakes" but were actually completely wrong. It's not just a matter of my consistently playing better; I'm playing differently now. I gave two stones to an IGS 6k the other day. I got wiped out in one corner from a joseki I didn't know and still won by more than 15 points. I can't just be "making less mistakes" than the 6k. When I observe the many semi-pros play on IGS, I can predict their next moves much more often than before. I suspect this is true at all levels: there is material you simply do not know and until it is shown to you, or you discover it on your own, you won't be able to make progress. I think this is the main incentive for getting some lessons. Watching uneven games on IGS is also quite instructive. Example: the other day a 6d played a 4d. The 4d did really well, right up until he fell apart. There were considerations of thinness and thickness that the 6d understood that the 4d did not which ultimately proved decisive. I have also heard anecdotally, that many weaker players playing a "team game" against one stronger player, really don't gain any significant advantage from their greater numbers. There is just material missing from their understanding limiting their efforts. I think it becomes more difficult to find a suitable teacher the more you progress, rather than go just becoming more difficult.
Hicham:I think it might be better to get a teacher earlier on, when you just start. That way one would have less bad habits to unlearn and the fundamentals will be natural in your go thinking. But most of us only think about getting teachers when you get stuck or get at a higher level. Would a 20k taking lessons from a really good player be a good investment or would you guys advice him to only do this when he reaches dan level?