KGS Issue - Escapers / Discussion

Sub-page of KGSIssueEscapers

Table of contents

General questions

What to do if you have to leave before the game is finished

Dan Argent:I am rather new on KGS and haven't gotten a good feel for schedualing enough time to finish a game yet. There have been two games that I have had to leave from. In both games I was winning by a rather wide margin. I felt that I could not make the other person wait on the result because of my failure. I resigned both games even though I'm pretty sure I would have won. I realise this is not the ideal solution, but I hope that this is less rude than escaping.

  • DrStraw The admins of KGS do not encourage this - it tends to warp the ratings. You should try to discuss it with the opponent first and explain the situation. It maybe possible to arrange to time to continue.

Hu: You were very honorable about it, Dan. Alternatively, sometimes one can get agreement from one's opponent to resume at a later time. There is no question that the way you handled is the opposite of rude.

knakts: But the KGS system doesn't recognize an agreement. No matter what you agree on, one will be marked as the escaper. So, currently, no good solution to this.


Anonymous: If people need to be able to leave a game for whatever reason and we dont want to place unnecessary rules on the server, why not make non-escape games an option in game set up much like selecting private. This way people who arent intending to leave may choose to select this option and should one or the other leave it counts as an immediate forfeit.

Phelan: Because leaving the game isn't equal to escaping? If one person(for example, the one who didn't choose non-escape) has a internet connection problem, the server would see him leave, and give him an instant loss.

Best way to treat escapers

Labelling system

DJgoeland: I propose that an escaper is obliged to continue its part with its adversary. This escaper does not have any more access to the other functions of KGS as long as it did not finish its parts in progress (provided that an adversary is present and that this one has precised his intention to continue the part). So, the involuntary escaper which returns to play after a disconnection would not be penalized, but the 'professional' escaper which voluntarily leaves a part in order to go to play another part could not any more do it.

Ekted: There needs to be a system in place to at least label escapers using some trusted system. I don't care if the games count against them. I don't want to waste my time playing if someone is going to quit when they start losing.

Velobici: Escaping and Escapers create frustration for the player winning the game. One doesn't get the reward/affirmation of actually winning, having the other player resign or scoring the game. Perhaps this fustration is the result of misunderstanding. We are not engaged in tournament games. We are playing for the pleasure of playing and to learn how to play better. An escaper is someone who is losing so badly that they can't bear to resign or to score the game. Perhaps its best to count it as a win in one's own mind and move on to another game.

ProtoDeuteric: I do not believe that there is a general misunderstanding of the caliber of the games played on KGS, and I can say that I myself certainly have no such misunderstanding. The frustration comes from the lack of etiquette and the feeling that your time and the development of your games are abused by people who escape after feeling that they have lost. Escaping doesn't make the escaper stronger or better either because they don't rise above adversity. I can barely accept the argument that one should just "count it as a win in one's own mind and move on to another game" because that type of thinking (wrapped up differently) caused the escaper to escape. He "counted it as a LOSS in his mind and moved on (i.e. escaped)."

Velobici: He "counted it as a LOSS in his mind..." would lead a person not suffering from a "lack of etiquette" to resign. That is not what causes the escaper to escape...the escaper does not want to admit to the other person that they have lost, or does not want the game counted against them in the rating system. Its not the loss, its the recognition of the loss by the other person or rating system that they seek to avoid.

  • ZeroKun: So what's the problem? It's not like 3 out of every 5 games you play are unfinished due to people escaping you. The board position hasn't changed after he escaped, so you still won and he lost, shouldn't you be happy with that? Most likely one game won't affect your rank adversly. I've preached enough to people who complain about escapers to know that you can't change their mind about it, but just think of the board and not the fact that the server doesn't have a result :)

Chris Hayashida: I luckily have not run across many escapers, but I wanted to add my two cents. I don't have a lot of time to play online, and I do like playing rated games and using my rating to see if my play is getting better or worse. So when I play a game, I'm investing an hour or more of my time to play Go. It really sucks if after I spend all that time, the other person escapes. It's more annoying than anything else, and it somewhat feels like I "wasted" the past hour trying to improve my rating. I'll get over it, but it's still annoying.

Asd?: I've played two games very recently where my opponent would wait until the scoring and remove dead stones, only to discover that he lost by about 30 points, and then leave. It's not that hard to click "Done" once we've been playing for almost an hour. This is the same guy. He never greets me at the beginning of a game and I think his rank is around 10-12 kyu. Always on a guest account. Obviously this guy doesn't like losing and is just incredibly childish to pull this every time.

These were not ranked games and I don't really mind - I know who won and I got to see the score. It's not like anything is going to be different if I would play in a club, except that maybe my opponent would be more polite. I get being a sore loser so I can't say I care too much about that either. But it is annoying because those games are marked as unfinished in my games list, perhaps leading people to believe that I was the one who escaped.

For me the solution from now on is simply to never play against guests.

I think KGS already has a pretty good system for this. In automatch you can just decide you only want to play against registered people, and I've never seen a guy who has a registered account leave (maybe they care more about their reputation). When you browse the games list you immediately see if the guy has an account, a solid rank and so on.

I think a harsher system than what there is now would do more harm than good, because there are people who genuinely disconnect because their internet connection is crap. Then those people would suffer from it. It wouldn't be too hard to mark people as leavers though, even if they play from guest accounts (all you have to do is save and match their IPs or whatever, and have an "E" or something next to the name, similar to the tilde ~, but I don't think this would be a good solution). (I realize that this discussion might be old and maybe not current though because it says "changes as of 2004" below :-)).

Mark Galeck: there is an explanation of why the escapers system is unlikely to change - "people should not be forced to play a game they don't want to play". I think this statement does not make sense at all in this context. They are not forced to play. They started a game. If they don't want to play anymore, they can forfeit. So nobody forces anybody to play.

And here is my idea on how to deal with escapers. When a person logs in, if anybody whom they have an unfinished game with, is idle, that game is automatically restarted. If there are several such games, one of them is restarted.

Changes of January 2004

lusion: As of January 2004 I understand there's a new KGS policy for escapers: games older than a certain period automatically count against whomever left first. But there are problems with this policy.

I'll use myself for example. I have four games on my list where I left first. Two were for a flakey network connect where my opponent was gone when I returned. Two others I was interrupted and had to leave and we agreed to continue later but I haven't seen my opponent since. Under the new KGS policy, if my opponent doesn't come back, all four count as losses against me.

Neil: That's not quite what it says on KGS Status. There it says that the automatic forfeits happen if you have too many incomplete games, as a replacement for the old rank-forfeiture rule.

I support the policy. The needs of those whose opponents "escape" from losses must be balanced against those who need to "escape" from rude opponents.

Joshual000: This policy is excellent. A policy like certainly reflects that of tournement play where leaving a game would result in a loss on time. Not to mention that the added bonuses at KGS include it only happens if you have too many incomplete games *and* there is time to complete an unfinished game before starting another.

Plans for 2.6.7

(See main page for the plans)

(Sebastian:) This reminds me of the "three strikes - your out" rule. Is this really effective in our case? Wouldn't it be easy for chronic escapers to just create a new account?

xela: The frustrating thing about having people escape against me isn't the lack of a result, it's the fact that the server won't allow players to save the SGF of a game that isn't finished. Could this be changed?

Most escapers don't have pictures, always check your opponents profile before engaging in combat.

Alex Weldon: I doubt that it will be. There's a good reason that you can't save the SGF of an unfinished game or a game in progress. If you could, there'd be a whole new category of cheaters, who leave in the middle of a complex situation or blitz game, take 10 minutes to analyse the situation offline (or consult with a stonger-ranked friend) and then come back and claim that their connection crashed.

tasuki: well, sadly it is not so difficult to make a screenshot and do the same (hopefully people are not *that* bad)

Kuolema: Or just replay the game in a demonstration game or offline mode...

Ggtt814 Luckily theres only a few escapers out there in the big ocean....

boozdaddyo: escapers are becoming an epidemic. honest players should not be penalized by a sore losers unwillingness to accept a lose. there is no reason that a game should not be forfeited if a player "Escapes" and doesn"t return within 5 minutes. it is only fair that he be credited immediately with his lose and the honest player be credited with the win that he or she earned. it is time for the fair and just rules to be implemented and the escaping issue be put to bed once and for all.

Anonymous:I doubt that. I just had a series of games when my connection broke down and my opponent use my asent to flee lost game. Due to actual rules i was marked as escaper, while theother palyer should be marked. A time window for returning could solve this problem

Using refusal of game resumption

buty1954: Something is wrong in automatic apply of escaper rules. Here is my experience

BEWARE OF CHEATERS: I had a bad experience with a cheater not identified as escaper as follow. On 1st May a server problem interrupted my game against kgsty18. When I tried to continue kgsty18 escaped. I read FAQ and tried all the recomended actions. No effect.

HOW KGSTY18 IS CHEATING. If you are unlucky to get disconected from a game with kgsty18 you get marked as escaper. kgsty18 will never continue the game. kgsty18 just wait until the unfinished game is awarded by forfeit (you lose if you get enough escaper marks) or is dropped out of server (after 6 months). This way kgsty18 is never losing unfinished games. kgsty18 can have many unfinished games - no limit

RECIPEE FOR CHEATERS: In hopeless position a cheater have a chance - the winning opponent to get disconected. Cheater can refuse to continue the game. In this case cheater is not marked as escaper. No escaper mark means: - game will never be lost by cheater ! - cheater have a chance to win the game by forfeit !!

RECIPEE FOR HONEST PLAYERS: Do not play ranked games against kgsty18 and any other cheater like him (unless you have a stable net connection).

DANGER ?? What if escapers start using recipee for cheaters ?? KGS will cease to be a nice place to play ranked games ??

Escaper should be a player who does not make the next move in an adjourned game

Phelan: First, this was posted in the wrong place. The appropriate place would be KGSIssueEscapers/discussion. Second, don't accuse people of cheating just like that. Does that player play against people with bad connections in purpose so he can leave when their connection goes down? If yes, then you should report him to the admins.

Phelan: However, this seems unlikely. It must be a lot of work to find people with bad connections and play them exclusively. I'm assuming that you just played one game against him in which this happened, and decided to complain here. You could also realize that if you manage to resume other games in the same situation, you'll never lose that game due to escaping.

Buty1954 - for Phelan to understand:

1. I think in some cases the server does not manage well the award of escaper mark !! Server is awarding wins by forfeit based on number escaper marks. It is a game handling issue or not ? 2. I had beeen disconnected due to a server problem. When I tried to resume the game my opponent run away. I am marked as escaper and my opponent is not. The esacaper mark is awarded to the first player who leave a game and this is not changed if the other player refuse to continue the game. A player who refuses to continue a game knowing that will not get an escaper mark is a cheater !! 3. Cheater does not look for opponents with bad connection. Cheater just use each opportunity. Cheater is not leaving a game, but will never continue an unfinished game. Cheater is never marked as escaper, no matter how many such games is refusinj to continue. A significant part of cheater's unfinished games are won by forfeit (wins awarded by server). Some of those are wins against real escapers, but there are also games won by forfeit in bad positio, based on cheater refuse to continue the game. 4. It is not only about losing a game. It is about a player who is forgiven for not wanting to continue any unfinished game (unlimited number). It is about getting a better rank due to this way of action.(cheater can avoid some loses and is getting some undeserved wins). 5. My wish is to make the server award the esacper mark to the player who is not making the next move !! It is logical, simple and fully compatible to the concept of escaping. A player who get disconected can be an escaper or not. A player who refuses to continue a game is certainly escaping. 6. If you can move my message in a more apropriate place,please do..

Phelan: 1. I don't think it's a game handling issue, I think it's a social issue.

2. You use the terms "run away", which have a different meaning from "left", as in "my opponent left". Without knowing the opponent in question, I can't say from your description that he ran away. Why is he cheating? He might not have time to resume that game. You are assuming here that everyone who does not resume a game does so because he is cheating.

3. Again, you are assuming things in the mentality of a player. You are assuming that his reason for not wanting to resume the game is cheating. Forget the specific situation and think about it in general. Can you see a reason for a player who doesn't want to cheat to refuse a resume?

4. Why are you concerned for another player's rank? If the person is cheating to get a better rank, he/she isn't improving, just looking to get a better number that gives him no advantage. Or at least none that I see.

5. This idea is interesting, but it would have to be carefully thought out to see if it could be done without harming players who aren't cheaters, but that might have some reason for not resuming a game. For instance, how long after the game would he have to resume the game not to be branded a cheater? I don't see a way to figure this all out simply.

6. Moved it here.

KGS user buty1954: For Phelan better understanding

1. I think that the way server awards escaper mark in an adjourned/unfinished game and use the count of escaper marks for decisions to award a win/lose by forfeit is an automated process.and is a game handling issue.

2. The term "opponent is running away" is used in KGS help files, FAQ, escaper section. I opened the unfinished game and invited user kgsty18 to continue. User kgsty18 was online,but ignored me while opening and playing new games. I kept our unfinished game open for more then 1 hour and in this time user kgsty18 had played 2 new games and started another, This fit to definition of the term "opponent is runing away" ?? User kgsty18 has a lot of unfinished games, about 30 in 6 months, but is not losing any of them. All opponents in user kgsty18 unfinished games are escapers ?? I thimk this user is somehow cheating ! I am almost sure that user kgsty18 is refusing to continue any unfinished game if the opponent was the first to leave. The result of this behaviour can be estimated by simply counting the number of unfinished games and number of wins by forfeit for user kgsty18 in last 6 months (in KGS archives).

3. I understand that a player can have a reason to refuse to continue a game. In my case user kgsty18 reason is clear - I was going to win. Server does not use the term cheater. Server does use escaper mark system in order to reduce the chances of players who want to cheat. That can be improved.

4. Each ranked game has an effect on both players rank. The player who get a better rank by cheating does not improve its own skill. But what can you say about the opponents of the cheater ?? What can you say about accuracy of the ranking system if this kind of cheating is possible ?? One game has litle effect. The effect is depending on how many such games are possible. A player who get the opponent disconected (for technical reason), can refuse to continue the game and will never get an escaper mark. Unlimited number of adjourned games can be cancelled or awarded as wins by forfeit to a player who use this opportunity. I call this a method of cheating. Phelan call it a social issue.

5.Discussions (invitation to continue a game) are not relevant to the server. The award of escaper mark is limited to "the first to leave a game". When the player marked as escaper will try to continue the game and opponent will refuse, the escaper is no longer the same. But the server keeps the escaper mark on the same player. I thought to a way to improve this. The player initially marked as escaper can make the next move in absence of the opponent. Based on last move placed in an unfinished game the server should move the escaper mark to the opponent. Now the opponent not coming to continue the game would be rightfully marked as escaper. All the other features related to escaper mark can remain unchanged.

 This is my wish.

Is it wrong ? Is it hard to implement in software ??

6. Posting my oppinion here will bring it in the attention of KGSWishlist managers for analize ??

Thank you.

  • I fail to see how naming that player's username 17 times helps... Isn't it possible to discuss escapers issue without citing names? This sounds like personnal vendetta.
  • If the escaper system doesn't punish the players at first game left, it's to cover such a case where for instance the user is having a connection issue.

User buty1954:

I supose the above two lines are Phelan's oppinion.I can see that the real issue is carefully not answered. The issue is The server punish as escaper any player who has lost the connection if the opponent of the player will refuse to continue the unfinished game (general presentation of the issue is posted in section 32 of Wishlist) The repeated mention of the user name is placed for anyone to be able to chech his record in KGS archives and see that this player refuses to resume any unfinished game. It is the only example I have and I will not start searsching for others.


This is a copy of the living page "KGS Issue - Escapers / Discussion" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2009 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.
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