Ongoing Game 5 / Discussion

Sub-page of OngoingGame5

Table of contents Table of diagrams
Alternatives after 6
Tewari analysis of move 6
Alternate White 10
Should 3 defend in this variation?
Tesuji after defense with 3, stretch with 4
Disaster
Better than pushing through directly
White cuts, is very pleasant, black is floating
White cuts, still has the option of a
White still cuts, and keeps the option of a
Similar cut, still the option of a
Take the corner ( at a, perhaps)
Also nice, but perhaps black will not play ?
Tewari
So maybe like this, reversal to the second diagram
Continued

Moves 20-21


Alternative for

Move 6

[Diagram]

Alternatives after 6

fractic: I got the feeling that W6 was too close. If black plays B7 I think the result is better for black.

Harleqin: W6 is wrong in other ways: it just defends the white stone, but White was first in this corner, so it's very, very slack. The normal aim for the 5-3 point is to pincer a move like B5, e.g. with 'a', or to press down with 'b' etc. and then extend to around 'c'. The result you show here puts Black clearly ahead, I'd estimate around 10 points.

Herman Hiddema: This is bad for white, but it is not by 10 points. I'd guess about 3-4 points or so. Suppose white played 10 at d, then by tewari we could show something like the next diagram.

Bill: I'd say 2-3 pts. :)

[Diagram]

Tewari analysis of move 6

Herman Hiddema: W10 is too close and should be at a, but it does not lose 10 points.

Harleqin: I think that White not only loses some points with the short extension but also with not attacking B5.

Herman Hiddema: W6 may be slightly slack, but B7 is also slack, I would never play that in that position without a pincer already in place.


Move 10

[Diagram]

Alternate White 10

Kokiri - I really wanted to play W1 here as an alternative to W10 as played for real, but didn't want to play 2 moves on the same board. Is this line playable?

fractic: I would say W1 here is probably better then as in the game. Woudn't W3 at B4 be better though?

[Diagram]

Should 3 defend in this variation?

Dieter No I don't think so. Black can take easy territory then and White's cut will be inefficient.

Herman Hiddema: I think W5 can do better, see next diagrams

[Diagram]

Tesuji after defense with 3, stretch with 4

Herman Hiddema I'm not sure B4 is a good move. What do you do after W5?

Options, IMO, in the next diagrams:

[Diagram]

Disaster

[Diagram]

Better than pushing through directly

[Diagram]

White cuts, W13 is very pleasant, black is floating

fractic: Black has the option of B8 at W9 though.

Herman Hiddema: Yes, but then you get exactly the same result as Dieters diagram, except for the fact that black has answered white+circle with B6 instead of a, a clear gain for white, as she can now take the corner.

fractic: I realized that but it's still pushing from behind. It's still good for white.

Herman Hiddema: W7 is pushing through, that's different than simply pushing form behind, as white is also cutting off a stone. But B8 at W9 would be terrible bad shape anyway, better to make a one point jump. I've added a diagram for that:

[Diagram]

White cuts, still has the option of a

Herman Hiddema: For example, like this. Playing W9 may be dubious though, perhaps white is better of playing tenuki.

[Diagram]

White still cuts, and keeps the option of a

[Diagram]

Similar cut, still the option of a

Dieter: Looking at this diagram, I think a territory oriented Black player may play a as early as now. It's about 20 points in gote given the bad shape of the White stones and the aji of b. Given that this was White's first move corner, the result is at least balanced. I think I like the variation better, where Black's central stones float.

Anyway, I didn't spot the tesuji, so thanks for this.

Herman Hiddema: Hmm. It is awfully big isn't it? I have a bit of a blind spot for that sometimes, where I consider any move I can count the points gained as "end game", and ignore it too long :-)

So perhaps one of the next diagrams?

[Diagram]

Take the corner (B10 at a, perhaps)

Dieter: Hmmm. Now Black has sente to play at the bottom. Maybe White can treat W9 and a as miai?

Herman Hiddema: True, black can treat he marked stone lightly now, and a move at c looks very attractive. Perhaps te3nuki instad of W9 is indeed an option.

[Diagram]

Also nice, but perhaps black will not play B8?

Dieter: Woosh, I will always like the three thick central stones and still the aji of b has not disappeared.

Herman Hiddema: True, but now at least white has sente to play c or thereabout. I think this may be reasonably even. White takes 10-12 points and sente, while black gets a lot of thickness.

Dieter: We're already converging largely, but c is hardly sente against the black group. Black might be happy wit d after all and e is more Black's than White's so the eye seems pretty safe.

[Diagram]

Tewari

Dieter: Canceling out the circled captured stones, the superfluous squared stones have no Black counterpart. Tewari seems to demonstrate a favourable result for Black.

[Diagram]

So maybe like this, reversal to the second diagram

Dieter: Hence no, W9 is too good for her, with white+circle aji present.




Bob McGuigan: There is a move similar to B7 in the game discussed in Yilun Yang's Tricks in Joseki and shown in diagrams on the SL page for the book.

[Diagram]

Continued

Dieter I think W10 was honte. The continuation of the alternative goes like this and the shape of the W2 group is not splendid. white+circle is well placed and Black is floating in the centre, so I'm not so sure how bad the result really is for White.

Herman Hiddema: This variation feels slightly dubious, what is white's next move? a seems impossible, but b isn't very good either.



[Diagram]

xxxxx?: Although W1 looks kind of funny, it left Black some weird aji in the lower left that a move like B2 was really appealing for Black. Then, W3 encloses the corner, which is something that I am addicted to =(

xxxxx?: (Since I don't want to play too many moves, I am going to cheat a little =p ) If we look at this diagram, I think black+circle is kind of misplaced. (So where do I think black+circle is better at?)

Move 20

[Diagram]

Moves 20-21

ThorAvaTahr: W20 does not seem right to me. It seems to hurt the marked stone (and it is not necessary to get ahead as in another common joseki). I think a is the most common joseki here.

Andy Pierce: I think you're right and after B21, the white+circle black+circle exchange is going to work out to be white pushing from behind. Not a major loss though.

ThorAvaTahr: In the common joseki white (a) could also be seen as pushing from behind, but I think that white does it so that she can obtain sente.


Move 25

ThorAvaTahr: I think we should first continue for a few moves, but I have a comment about this move :)

Tapir: It is the only move for black imho.


Move 29

ThorAvaTahr: Ouch, this play is at an uninteresting side?, does not help the current fight and creates a double low wing formation, it seems to me that 30 is the correct punishment.

Move 39

[Diagram]

Dieter: Though I agree the upper left is urgent and B39 makes nice shape, I still think it is wrong, because it builds influence towards a solid White group.

Herman Hiddema: Will answer when this has been played out further :-)

[Diagram]

Dieter the top is the bigger side, so I think this B39 and B41 is better. Incidentally, B39 if unanswered gives a ko in the corner. Also, probaby a is globally better than B41.



Move 50

[Diagram]

Alternative for W50

unkx80: W50 was played at B2 in this diagram. I thought that W50 can be played like this, settling the top side while gobbling up black+circle, and leaving behind a cutting point at a.

Thanks to the white+circle stone, a White move at b threatens to connect back with c, so it is not possible to kill the corner.

I would consider this a big success for White.

Andy Pierce: Well, B47 (black+square) was my move, and I'm pretty sure I should have made the expected response to Dieter's kikashi at a, but it just seemed too submissive, a total gain for white. I thought that between white owing a move in the corner and the thinness of white on the top side that white would be too busy to take much advantage, but I overlooked the inability of black to block white's connection underneath (as pointed out by unkx80).

[Diagram]

Dieter: I think all of B41, B43 and B45 should have been at a, really attacking White weak top group, while influencing the centre. If White flees to the left, her corner will affected and Black will be able to play a double purpose move or otherwise play according to the circumstances.


This is a copy of the living page "Ongoing Game 5 / Discussion" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2008 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.
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