fractic: I got the feeling that was too close. If black plays
I think the result is better for black.
Harleqin: is wrong in other ways: it just defends the white stone, but White was first in this corner, so it's very, very slack. The normal aim for the 5-3 point is to pincer a move like
, e.g. with 'a', or to press down with 'b' etc. and then extend to around 'c'. The result you show here puts Black clearly ahead, I'd estimate around 10 points.
Herman Hiddema: This is bad for white, but it is not by 10 points. I'd guess about 3-4 points or so. Suppose white played 10 at d, then by tewari we could show something like the next diagram.
Bill: I'd say 2-3 pts. :)
Herman Hiddema: is too close and should be at a, but it does not lose 10 points.
Harleqin: I think that White not only loses some points with the short extension but also with not attacking .
Herman Hiddema: may be slightly slack, but
is also slack, I would never play that in that position without a pincer already in place.
Kokiri - I really wanted to play here as an alternative to
as played for real, but didn't want to play 2 moves on the same board. Is this line playable?
fractic: I would say here is probably better then as in the game. Woudn't
at
be better though?
Dieter No I don't think so. Black can take easy territory then and White's cut will be inefficient.
Herman Hiddema: I think can do better, see next diagrams
Herman Hiddema I'm not sure is a good move. What do you do after
?
Options, IMO, in the next diagrams:
fractic: Black has the option of at
though.
Herman Hiddema: Yes, but then you get exactly the same result as Dieters diagram, except for the fact that black has answered with
instead of a, a clear gain for white, as she can now take the corner.
fractic: I realized that but it's still pushing from behind. It's still good for white.
Herman Hiddema: is pushing through, that's different than simply pushing form behind, as white is also cutting off a stone. But
at
would be terrible bad shape anyway, better to make a one point jump. I've added a diagram for that:
Herman Hiddema: For example, like this. Playing may be dubious though, perhaps white is better of playing tenuki.
Dieter: Looking at this diagram, I think a territory oriented Black player may play a as early as now. It's about 20 points in gote given the bad shape of the White stones and the aji of b. Given that this was White's first move corner, the result is at least balanced. I think I like the variation better, where Black's central stones float.
Anyway, I didn't spot the tesuji, so thanks for this.
Herman Hiddema: Hmm. It is awfully big isn't it? I have a bit of a blind spot for that sometimes, where I consider any move I can count the points gained as "end game", and ignore it too long :-)
So perhaps one of the next diagrams?
Dieter: Hmmm. Now Black has sente to play at the bottom. Maybe White can treat and a as miai?
Herman Hiddema: True, black can treat he marked stone lightly now, and a move at c looks very attractive. Perhaps te3nuki instad of is indeed an option.
Dieter: Woosh, I will always like the three thick central stones and still the aji of b has not disappeared.
Herman Hiddema: True, but now at least white has sente to play c or thereabout. I think this may be reasonably even. White takes 10-12 points and sente, while black gets a lot of thickness.
Dieter: We're already converging largely, but c is hardly sente against the black group. Black might be happy wit d after all and e is more Black's than White's so the eye seems pretty safe.
Dieter: Canceling out the circled captured stones, the superfluous squared stones have no Black counterpart. Tewari seems to demonstrate a favourable result for Black.
Bob McGuigan: There is a move similar to in the game discussed in Yilun Yang's Tricks in Joseki and shown in diagrams on the SL page for the book.
Dieter I think was honte. The continuation of the alternative goes like this and the shape of the
group is not splendid.
is well placed and Black is floating in the centre, so I'm not so sure how bad the result really is for White.
Herman Hiddema: This variation feels slightly dubious, what is white's next move? a seems impossible, but b isn't very good either.
xxxxx?: Although looks kind of funny, it left Black some weird aji in the lower left that a move like
was really appealing for Black. Then,
encloses the corner, which is something that I am addicted to =(
xxxxx?: (Since I don't want to play too many moves, I am going to cheat a little =p ) If we look at this diagram, I think is kind of misplaced. (So where do I think
is better at?)
ThorAvaTahr: does not seem right to me. It seems to hurt the marked stone (and it is not necessary to get ahead as in another common joseki). I think a is the most common joseki here.
Andy Pierce: I think you're right and after , the
exchange is going to work out to be white pushing from behind. Not a major loss though.
ThorAvaTahr: In the common joseki white (a) could also be seen as pushing from behind, but I think that white does it so that she can obtain sente.
ThorAvaTahr: I think we should first continue for a few moves, but I have a comment about this move :)
Tapir: It is the only move for black imho.
ThorAvaTahr: Ouch, this play is at an uninteresting side?, does not help the current fight and creates a double low wing formation, it seems to me that 30 is the correct punishment.
Dieter: Though I agree the upper left is urgent and makes nice shape, I still think it is wrong, because it builds influence towards a solid White group.
Herman Hiddema: Will answer when this has been played out further :-)
Dieter the top is the bigger side, so I think this and
is better. Incidentally,
if unanswered gives a ko in the corner. Also, probaby a is globally better than
.
unkx80: was played at
in this diagram. I thought that
can be played like this, settling the top side while gobbling up
, and leaving behind a cutting point at a.
Thanks to the stone, a White move at b threatens to connect back with c, so it is not possible to kill the corner.
I would consider this a big success for White.
Andy Pierce: Well, (
) was my move, and I'm pretty sure I should have made the expected response to Dieter's kikashi at a, but it just seemed too submissive, a total gain for white. I thought that between white owing a move in the corner and the thinness of white on the top side that white would be too busy to take much advantage, but I overlooked the inability of black to block white's connection underneath (as pointed out by unkx80).
Dieter: I think all of ,
and
should have been at a, really attacking White weak top group, while influencing the centre. If White flees to the left, her corner will affected and Black will be able to play a double purpose move or otherwise play according to the circumstances.