3-4 point high approach one-space low pincer
Low small pincer
Here are a few well-known answers to the low pincer .
Moving out with a, attaching to 3-4 with b and attaching to the pincer stone with c (see 3-4 point low approach one-space low pincer contact on top, by transposition).
Ishida says that d is experimented with. In fact it is more common now than c.
The thrust at e can be found at a separate page: 3-4 point, 5-4 approach, one-space low pincer, thrust. f has also been played.
The ikken tobi of x is not possible here. See [1].
Table of contents |
1. Moving out: kosumi
Black seems to have two standard answers: the extension to a and attaching with b according to Ishida's Joseki Dictionary. Essential Joseki by Rui Naiwei shows c as a possible Black response to .
1.1. Extension
White can now attach at a or press at b.
AJP: I was stunned to find that Kogo's lists a as inferior for white. See [100].
Bill: Since when is Kogo's authoritative? A quick search on GoBase does not seem to support that assertion.
1.1.1 Attach
White has an interesting ko to follow up with, if Black plays tenuki after the previous diagram. If Black a, White b makes a picnic ko. If Black c, White a is humiliating for Black.
To avoid the ko above, some people choose to play here instead. This way, White does not have the follow-up which leads to the ko, but White gets to play the large endgame move at a in sente.
1.1.2. Press
White gets influence along the left side and sente. Black's profit in the corner is considered superior locally, so has to be effective in the context of the whole board.
See BQM34. Labelled 'obsolete joseki' in the Kobayashi Koichi Dictionary. leaves bad aji here,
seems to be aji keshi therefore. Nowadays
is at a.
1.2. Attach
White can play a for central influence or b for preventing Black's connection.
Charles Matthews at c is also joseki, a more recent idea and currently much more popular.
Dieter: Aha ! That is the natural move and I have been wondering what was wrong with it. Strange that that one is a more recent idea.
The old joseki was this, with White playing tenuki after despite the cutting point at c. If Black cuts there White treats the stones including
and
as disposable.
This is a variation with the 'new' that has been played by top players. We probably assume Black wanted a framework on the left side here, making
an important point in the centre.
This line has been played in a number of games of Cho Hun-hyeon (on the side of White).
White must continue to run out after , Black a, naturally. White has made a ponnuki on Black's 'framework' side. White has a quite thin development on both sides.
2. Attachment + cut
Black cuts at and
is forced. Next there are the old continuation at a and a rather new one at b.
For at b see lower down.
For at
see 3-4 point high approach one-space low pincer attachment noseki.
2.1. Crawl
2.1.1. Atari from above
This is one standard sequence. At , White can choose this peaceful variation: she can also turn at
, depending on a ladder (see below). Black gets corner territory and influence on the left side. White gets influence on the upper side and sente.
John Fairbairn::Isn't this the wrong order of moves? Surely White defers until Black has played
?
Charles Matthews John is correct. The order of plays shown is a well-known mistake seen up to shodan level.
Lucas: If played in the order shown ( before
) then White can also turn at a in sente before playing
.
os?: This is a strange argument because it says that White gets an additional option by deviating from the correct order. I think that the above order may be worse than the correct order below, because it allows Black to move out at a or at 9 after White plays .
William - If played in the wrong order, Black gets much more of the corner. 10 is technically gote, but white's shape is rather pathetic after a cut at 'a', or just simply capturing the stones at 'b'. It is also possible for black to simply take sente. Black at 8 is possible in the correct order of moves, but then white gets 10 in sente.
This is a better result for White. White has sente and much more of the corner. The atari at 'a', for Black, is no longer as good a move.
This is one possible continuation. White's play is inconsistent and presumably bad -- the lone white stone on the outside was presumably played to obtain influence. If White moves out with the two stones, for example 'b', instead of allowing 5 and 7 then Black can save the inside stones in a variety of ways, for example, 6 or 'a'. A fight then proceeds on the top side, one possible variation involves a ko fight.
Note that the 'a'-'b' exchange is bad for white. White can never play 'e' because Black has 'd' to shorten the liberties on the two white stones (i.e., if 'c', then 'd'). A ko-fight results up to 8. If White loses this ko, White loses everything in this quadrant of the board. If White wins the ko, Black still has a perfectly fine wall on the left side and loses only a few points compared to the main variation. One presumes Black will win the ko ;).
White cannot back down from the ko; if 1, then the tesuji at 2 kills White via double-ko. I.e., Black will either have the extra liberty at 'a', or will have a black stone at 5, threatening capture.
White cannot achieve a good result this way either; White dies in the corner and is left with a serious cutting point (i.e., gote). Playing 'a' first leads to the same followup sequence, only Black can delay answering 7 at 8 until White plays 9 or 1. White at 6 should be answered by Black at 8.
Black, however, can avoid the ko fight.
The result is better for Black than in the joseki, but not nearly as good as Black winning the ko. Note that white still lacks eyes, unlike the joseki. A move at 'a' would fix that immediately, but Black can aim at forcing White to actually play such a worthless move.
Black can also choose this way, if influence is more important, and the ko fight is hard to win. The circle-square exchange isn't terribly urgent, as it is essentially Black's sente. This result is similar to the first variation given for answering White's trick move; white has a bigger corner, but the open-skirt is now on the top side instead of the left side. This is probably good for black -- to have arrived at this variation in the joseki, before the trick, white ought to have influence on the top, and black on the left.
2.1.1.1. Hamete
GoranSiska Black trades the corner and some stones to get development on both sides.
GoranSiska An idea I had when I was about 2 kyu. Territorially the position is the same as in 2.1.1. Atari from above, but I felt that having one line higher (then
in 2.1.1.) adds to the depth of the presumed black moyo on the left. At 1 dan level I discarded the "joseki". Will anyone care to speculate as to why?
If the ladder doesn't work for Black, instead of playing a he must extend at . After
, there is a peaceful play for Black at b and a fight at a.
2.1.2 Atari from below
Here, it depends on whether White can cut at a and capture the black stone in a ladder.
Charles Matthews See pushing battles in joseki 8 for a fuller treatment.
If the ladder works, Black submits with and
, getting a low position but keeping sente.
William: This is the wrong order of moves. The correct order is to push before closing the side.
Black cannot ignore 2 to play 4; White cuts at 'a' and gets a ponnuki on the outside, or captures the 4 black stones in the corner. More importantly, and for the same reason, Black cannot answer 2 at 'b'.
If the moves are played in the wrong order, Black can double-hane, at 'b'.
The cutting point at 'a' goes nowhere after the 2-3 exchange. It is usually impossible to severely attack 5 after the cut at 'b'. Indeed, the white cutting stones ought to come under heavy attack, considering black chose a pincer on the left side (so it shouldn't be dominated by white influence).
Guo Juan commented that an additional push is joseki, a comment I had not heard before.
I have not looked at the variations if Black ignores 4 (to play 6). Presumably 8 should in fact be one line further away, since the wall is one line higher. One also hopes that it makes sense to play 8 (6 in the prior variations) on the 4th line, since a wall this high is somewhat silly if there is black influence further down the right side (a reason to play 8 low).
I'm not too sure, but I think this variation is too good for Black. (variation by Dieter)
Black crawls on one side but gets ahead on the other (variation by Dieter)
![[Diagram]](../../diagrams/9/800e85f7a7623856fd604b8f302ffeb5.png)
Variation at 3: two ponnuki
This variation occurs in the 11th Tianyuan title match, game four between Ma XiaoChun and Chang Hao. Locally, White's profit is considered better than Black's influence along the left side but Black takes sente.
2.2. Atari
Against and
,
is tesuji. An exchange takes place with Black taking corner territory and sente and White influence towards side and center. The result is considered slightly better for White locally but playable for Black in many circumstances.
TDerz Question - I wonder: It's funny, black choses, white has to follow and I find black's position better (corner + sente and not fully surrounded). So do not even have to see the white game position (the surrounding white stones) whether and why she liked it, because Black initiated here. Yet, if it's the first time that I encounter this position - here, never seen it in real game positions - then I just guess that black's position is still suboptimal to other, more "normal" variants initiated by black.
here is not so good. The marked stone is under little pressure and Black will find it easy to dispose of the situation.
3. Attachment + hane
This is a well-established line too. Next White plays a (simple), or b, c which are both complex.
Recently there have been experiments with 4, also.
Karel? Does anyone actually ever play this? In the high-dan games I've seen, after , black tends to jump away to one of the circled stones instead.
here is, after all, fairly slow. Would white really play
, instead of building some wall by attacking the upper black group and then pincering the lower black stone?
Vincent: If black plays at , it leaves a weakness at a which can be exploited after white plays the marked stone. (A play at x by black would be even worse, allowing white to play at a immediately.)
xela: Kogo's joseki dictionary says that this is the modern way, and gives some variations which to me look rather complicated. I have found 121 pro games with this position, mostly played since 1997; a is by far the most common continuation (70/121), but all of b through e appear also. Myself, I don't entirely understand this position (e.g, what is wrong with white forcing at 'f' then attacking at 'g'?)--it would be nice if someone else would like to comment.
4. Tenuki
This is not a pincer that White can easily ignore: from the point of view of joseki and tenuki one can ignore White tenuki as a sensible continuation. It is played, though, in a small proportion of pro games. See 3-4 point high approach one-space low pincer, tenuki - the interesting point there is that Black's connection under isn't the most common way to play.
[1]
[100]
becomes overconcentrated when white captures
. If
at a instead, black extends across the top to the right to b
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