Ultimate Go Server/ Discussion

Sub-page of UltimateGoServer

Ultimate Go Server / Discussion

Do we need a server apart from KGS?

I herewith number the points for discussion: 1) KGS-Like Room-System. 2) Games can be started

5) Everything is stored

6) Both realtime and 7) non-realtime activity is allowed.

8) allows you to play with very, very strong players (Eur 6d+, professionals)

9) Cheyenne: Security of the system. You might as well start thinking about this issue. If the system is going to be used for any type of official game where the out come will be used for offical ranking (for example being used to feed back into the AGA ranking system). Also if you are going to have closed games (for example professional teaching games where a student pays for the lesson) you will need to be able to lock who can view or review the game.

Benjamin, you already state that KGS is best until, if just the server itself is concerned, because it has features 1+2a+3a+3b+4+5a+5c+6+7c

So the additional features we are talking about are:

Features 5b and 7b are something which seems to me like adding a tool to the existing KGS, i.e. setting time system to none and/or copying games (automatically ?; is it this what you want?) to a website where those games can be commented on by many (5b: Wiki character).

Point 8 is the one which is not technical, but depends on marketing and market share (someone will use only one system/server at a given time). Professionals are invited more often to KGS to give lectures & lessons and they seem to like the sense & simplicity of using it.

My conclusion: lobby for 5b+7b with wms and hear him sighing - extra features lead to extra risks on stability - despite from possible principle reasons against (THEN we could think of an extra server). point 8: let us lobby for KGS, get some even stronger players and professionals to use it more often.

My warning to also have cautious considerations: I mentioned market share: another server would split up the possible games to be played for all, this would be detrimental for all of us.

E.g. among non-realtime servers, I certainly feel much more for DGS (it offers more features and is easier to use) and any game played on LittleGolem is lost for the better server (DGS).


maruseru (just a japanese version of my first name, Marcel): About requesting extra features for KGS - that's why it would be good if KGS was open source - other people could take care of implementing some requested feature (this works very well for many other software projects). Since it isn't, it'd be good if UGS was open source. If it wasn't, someone else might come along in a few years and say "UGS does X and Y right, but Z is missing, so I'll just write my own".

I do worry about the potential split of audiences between all those servers...

Tderz Me too, that would be my biggest concern. (that's why I reacted so fast) Similar problems exists on financial markets, e.g. standardized options are cheaper than non-standarduzed ones, because their value is much easier to compare world-wide, hence more people are interested in them and the fixed costs sink proportionally. Applied to this question here => it seems much easier (and better, I hope) to add something to KGS (like an extra outlet) than to create something new like a competitor and split the scene.

Still a nice idea to include everything
game-server + Wiki + GTL + goproblems ...
BTW Maruseru, call me Tomaseru then :-), (ToMaSi? would be Chinese, aber ich mag die Zeichen davon nicht)


Skyr: @TDerz: I think Benjamin's description is a little Go-Server-centered; I think his intention is more likely to create a "all-encompassing Go system". An online Go gaming server certainly is part of that, as well as some editing tool. imho the most interesting aspect is the possible integration of a knowledge base of commented problems, study session, game comments, ..., together with some automated management of tournaments, league tournaments, and study sessions - all in one place. As I am writing these lines, I get the feeling that it sounds like an integration of KGS/CGoban and gobase.org... This page is not about a fixed project plan, it is meant for brainstorming - so we get to know what we really want :-)


Hikaru79: I'm with Skyr on this one. UGS can become so much more than just another server. I'm thinking of a one-stop, huge alternative (or integration) of many of the excellent Go services available now. With an account, one could play real-time and/or turn-based games, solve go problems, add their own go problem, rate and comment on go problems, chat, search a database, submit a review request, pick up a review request, start a Rengo, start a mini-tournament, create a "club" (on the server, not simply a room), chat, study joseki, etc. The possibilities are truly endless. Personally, I think this is exactly what the community needs. Count me on as *VERY* interested!

Benjamin: What exactly do you mean with "club" if it's something different to a room?

Hikaru79: I mean built-in support for things like Wings Go Club, etc. The ability to create a virtual "club" and have the server take care of things like membership, organization, etc. Clubs would have rooms, sure, but there would be more to them than that. Then, perhaps, clubs could face off against each other, have schedules (kept track of by the server), etc. Sort of like a room, but one with certain extra features.

nachtrabe: Something I've learned: Aim small, miss small. If you try to create a huge multi-tiered project, it will fail. Create a small, modular project that can be expanded, and then work on expanding it once you have the core components down. Design with scalability and future improvements in mind, but I don't think starting with a "go-server-centric" mindset--designing an alternate to KGS--can be considered a bad thing on any level.

Sure, add things to the wishlist and dream up new things, but if you start with such a massive project to create an online community I will place a high chance on it failing versus if you start with just a go server and work up from there.


Benjamin: I don't think that KGS could be changed to an UGS with its architecture. Also, have a look at the length KGSWishlist... I think that one-man-development is too slow, so open source is called for. Splitting the market is a bad point, but I don't think that you should stop a good idea by this argument. Also, if the UGS can really be implemented once in the way I imagine now, I'm sure that market will be less split than now, as both IGS and KGS users will want to switch...


geno: I once considered writing a [ext] GUI for GNU Go, but found that it required more experience with event-driven interfaces than I was likely to acquire anytime soon. Perhaps this is a good opportunity to fulfill that need, along the lines of what Skyr described as an "all-encompassing Go system".

I'm taking the liberty of creating a Ultimate Go Server Philosophy page, for discussions of open-source / wiki / free-speech issues that crop up from time to time. I would also hope that the Philosophy page would be a good place to talk about things like "Any feature which can't be turned off is a bug", et cetera, to make a server and interface that anyone can use.

Pajaro: As we are talking about free software, has anyone checked other free servers available out there? I've seen "ultimate" servers of checker, othello and others in SourceForge?. May be it is possible to pick up one and improve it. In this was, the efforts of many other developers can be added.


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