[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]

StartingPoints
ReferenceSection
About


Paths
BigQuestionMark

Referenced by
OrthodoxFuseki
BQM9
MetaDiscussion2003

 

BQM102
Path: BigQuestionMark   · Prev: BQM101   · Next: BQM103
  Difficulty: Advanced   Keywords: Opening, Strategy, Question

[Diagram]
Orthodox Fuseki

Alex Weldon: I've been playing the Orthodox Fuseki a lot lately. Say White is playing ni-ren-sei. Then W6 is pretty much forced by B5. The Orthodox Fuseki page suggests that a and b are miai at this stage, and it's not urgent for either side to play either yet; Black can choose later which is better based on later developments. This makes sense to me.



But in going over one of my games on KGS, a 1d player told me that Black should play a immediately and White should extend to b.[1] I told him that I thought that Black could hold off until things develop later, and he said "can't let White choose."

I suspect the Sensei's page is right, but I just thought I'd ask if people see any merit in his words. Since he's about 6 or 7 stones stronger than me, it seems cocky for me to dismiss them entirely, even though it makes me suspicious that he also said W6 would be okay one line higher, but one line lower would be too close to Black's shimari, which is also exactly the opposite of the wisdom given on Sensei's.

My thinking is that, although Black a may be good because it's sente and White one line above that would be likely to get Black to respond (to avoid double kakari), Black one line above b is also sort of good because it makes a pretty good extension from the shimari, although a couple lines too close. Meanwhile, neither extension to a or b seems much more desireable for White. Going down to b prevents Black from making an extension from his shimari, but W6 already prevents a perfect extension. Going up to a doesn't seem so hot to me either, because it's one line too far away to be a normal kakari to B1. Going one line further, as mentioned above, becomes the normally correct kakari, but the three space extension from W6 seems too thin.

So, my initial hunch was that I'd trust Sensei's more than some random 1 dan on KGS, and after thinking about it a while myself, what's said on Sensei's still makes more sense to me - playing on either side seems pretty good, but not perfect, for Black, and neither side looks particularly great for White either, so it seems like a and b really are more or less miai at this stage, and Black will probably be the one to get to choose later anyway.

So, have I answered my own question, or does someone have something to add?

HolIgor: Thank you for this question. It looks like everything about go you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask.

I am really amazed how much the 1d players know about fuseki. My imression is only that White has not managed to quench Black's initiative yet, so she has a tough game ahead. But on the move B7 that's true about almost any fuseki. Black, on the other hand, knows that he has to keep pressure or his advantage would slip away.

So, I am waiting for the stronger players to enlighten us on this question.

By the way, I cannot find what Charles wrote about this wedge, yet it is the most popular one, so Charles must have written something.[2]

Somebody with the access to the www.gobase.org could try to make a search on the position and report the results.

Rich: The Gobase fuseki search shows no immediate plays at a or b, but 23 of 78 games one line above 'b'.

HolIgor: Thank you. That's it, as I suspected. The direction of the play at a is considered wrong. Pressing from the side of the shimari helps to create a small moyo at the bottom. White's three-point extension? does not reach the keima kakari point and Black can simply defend the corner, not allowing White's group to settle easily.

[Diagram]
Usual plan

This does not mean that black won the game. Black does not let the initiative to slip away. But it is only one of the possible plans. In most cases back waits for the development in other parts of the board to determine the direction of play.

Alex Weldon: This is more or less what I thought... usually let the rest of the board develop... and if you're going to go immediately, approaching from the bottom (obviously not at b, but one line higher) looked better to me. What you've got above looks very good for Black. As one more question, what's Black's best response if White plays W8 one line higher? Immediate invasion?

HolIgor: My opponents usually invade immediately. I don't know what is the correct strategy. Neither do I know if the three space extension here is not slack. I just play it sometimes. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose.

HolIgor: Hmm, Kombilo search on my own games gives 25 games with this pattern on the right side. White did not do well. 44% wins only, but in the case when black chooses the move above b the statistic becomes sad: 11 games, 72.7% wins for black.

Dieter: Just a note on the dan and fuseki remark. When I give comments on a game (for the GTL, at my club ...) it is rare for me to comment on the first 15 moves. I am convinced that the understanding of the fuseki by a 6k lies close to mine. The areas where I can make a difference are Life and Death, Technique, direction of attack and Endgame.

In particular here, whether you leave the above situation for later or force the choice yourself, is just a matter of taste I think. The spirit of Go however still seems to tilt in favour of flexibility, so my taste is to leave it for a while. I would never comment about it to a 6k unless very clear cautions that I am not qualified on the subject.



Andrew Grant: The three-space extension is fine. White has no need to fear an invasion.

[Diagram]
Invasion: 1-10

[Diagram]
Invasion: 11-14

This will do for White.


[Diagram]
Invasion: 1-10

[Diagram]
Invasion: 11-20

This is also a way of playing here.

See also BQM9.



[Diagram]
Orthodox Fuseki

Personally I do not like what that 1D suggested: to play B7 at a (or even b) that allows white c to settle very comfortably in the face of the shimari, while black has no effective attack on white's two space extension. I will, and recommend, either B7 in this diagram or tenuki. For B7 in this diagram, it has already been explained by the other deshis above, and therefore I shall not repeat it here. --unkx80

Alex Weldon: Thanks everyone for the answers and further comments. I think there's a lot of content here. It's nice when a question provokes such enthusiastic response.

Jesse: I have learned that one should generally "play from the weaker side." Why is this position an exception? Is it because Black cannot easily attack the White group, as unkx80 noted, or is it because extending from a shimari is just a very high value play, even if it is not the optimal extension? Maybe a later 3-3 invasion would make an extension from the top seem misplaced?

unkx80: Firstly, both black groups are relatively strong. Secondly, the white wariuchi stone can settle easily and hence not easily attacked. Note I said that B7 can also tenuki, because the general principle is for black to wait out until it is clear that which side is better. However, because black has already invested two stones to make a shimari that faces upwards, so it is quite all right for black to play B7 and create a box formation, whereas a box formation is not that likely in the top right corner. It is quite possible for the box formation to be developed into the diagram below, which is quite nice. =)


[Diagram]
Box formation


Debate #19 from The Great Joseki Debates offers a strong opinion into the right half of the above position. The left half of the board is a little more complex than the original question, and not copied from the book. War Eagle


The Great Joseki Debates: "On the right, each side has an excellent move when play pauses in the upper left. Black wants to extend to B1 in Diagram 2 to expand his corner position. White wants to play W1 in Digram 3 to reduce the influence of Black's corner enclosure while at the same time stabilizing his own stone. Since the difference is between Diagrams 2 and 3 is considerable, both sides will try to come away ... with sente."

[Diagram]
Diagram 2 from The Great Joseki Debates

[Diagram]
Diagram 3 from The Great Joseki Debates


[1]

Charles This may come from a reading of p.76 of Proverbs - the book; which isn't very clear.

[2]

Charles No, I haven't studied this in detail.



Path: BigQuestionMark   · Prev: BQM101   · Next: BQM103
This is a copy of the living page "BQM102" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2004 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.