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KGS Wishlist - Social
Path: KGSWishlist   · Prev: KGSWishlistTechnical   · Next: KGSWishlistGameHandling
    Keywords: Online Go, Clubs & Places, Software

1. Social

[11] Logging In
[12] General User Handling
[13] Chat handling/room use
[14] Handling Nasties
[15] Design Discussion: Should Games be arranged by Chat?
[16] New User's First Login
[17] Privacy

[11] Logging In

  • When logging in, show "login since:" plus time of login (instead of showing "now"); when logged out, show "logged out since:" plus logout time (instead of last login time).

[12] General User Handling

  • When will the opposite to the tilde be implemented? This feature should already be in existence!
  • Being able to store your own personal notes about players. Stored locally, and kept private, just as a way to remember who's who. Not a public database (this may be illegal in some countries). Suggested that these notes be stored on the user's machine, not on the server +++++
  • Please get rid of the assumption that just because someone uses the english language version they are from the US (or Spain for Spanish, China for chinese etc.) Just replace it with a language (Chinese Language client, English Language client etc.)
    • This is not assumed. The feature merely reports what version of the client you are using - nothing more - nothing less.
    • Please show me where I can get an English english client instead of a US english client and I will download it and use it. Would it be really hard to add a question about where people are from as part of the installation? After the one about install directory, f'rinstance?
      • Nemir: Am I correct in guessing that this is an issue because the english language client is actually the "United States" client? If that is the case, isn't that adding a superfluous and possibly innacurate label? Should it not simply be a language version rather than a country version? This was the gist of my original request.
  • Implement user defined ranks for people who don't want to use the ranking system. Con: game list should show this up eventually, and game notes work fine until then.--
  • Room chats include rank beside handles, as in game chats.
  • Context menu on right-click of handle in chat window.+ Also suggested upon right clicking anywhere on the chat. ++
  • In user info and private chatbox, simple way to observe user's current game.++++++
  • Short user-defined messages when private chat initiated, brb, afk, out to lunch.... ++++++
  • Buddy list in true separate pane locked on top or separate scroll bar? ++
  • Keep buddy and censor data saved on server. wms ponders all preference data saved server side. Fonts might be one good preference to save client-side due to different resolution screens, other data should be considered carefully before going server-side as well. ++
  • Trailing option to be notified when selected individuals start a game. Integrate with game/request search feature mentioned in [32]? +? like the igsī trace command
  • Some IRC style slash commands? eg: /who <nick> faster than going through menus ++
  • When playing a game, be able to pull up a summary list of games that have previously been played by yourself and that user. ++
  • rubilia: More than two personal "nick groups" (I think of something like the "buddy" and "censored" list are already), and make their properties configurable. To which group a player belongs could be displayed by toggable icons attached to his/her nick. There should be a way to sort players by these icons. E. g., there are people I don't like to play with again, but whom I still want to be able to chat with, which is why itīs not appropriate to censor them.
  • The new system of putting unsolid (?) ranks at the bottom with guests is great, but means we no longer see players that are 9d? who have never lost a game but deserve to be up at the top. With the new ranking system that means players can't get even 8k? without beating a 10k, Surely this could be changed back?
    • wms: Could be, but won't be. Before there was a lot of confusion where people would get upset when somebody with a rank of "1d?" ended up being not 1d. The "?" was there to indicate that the rank was just a guess, and could be wrong by many stones in either direction, but apparently people didn't realize this and would assume that "1d?" really meant that the person was 1d. The new system makes it totally unmistakeable that uncertain ranks are not on a par with accurate ranks, and I will not be changing it back. It caused too much trouble before, the problem of the new system (people whose "?" ranks are accurate being put down low in the sorting order) is much less severe.
    • (Nemir:) Would it be possible to alter the ranking systesm with a special case if someone wins enough games (say 4 or so) against players of 7d or greater rank? That would mean that strong, undefeated players are solidified and then are at the top of the sort by rank list... For example, Tartrate will never get a solid rank, because he won't ever lose a second game against an amateur player.
    • rubilia: I guess the change should be done for "9d?" only, because "8d" and "8d?" definitely are different. The highest rank available is "9d?", so all the undefeated >"8d" players pile up there, no matter if they could give 2 or even 4 stones to "8d" opponents. I think that makes the questionmark to 9d ranks as reasonable as meaningless. (The latter applies if there is no 9d player without a questionmark. I am not sure about that.) Anyways, I agree, it would be nice to see their games at top.
    • Nemir: Well, perhaps, but as I am around 9k now I like watching games between players around 2k - 2d as much as anything else because I have some hope of understanding what they're up to. I guess the problem I see with this is that one problem (the error range of ? ranks) has been resolved by two different methods. One method, unfortunately, has a cost to the server in that we can no longer as easily keep track of players with some strenght. The other method, not allowing ranks greater than 10k? to be granted without defeating someone of a suitable rank would be a suitable method and still allow everyone to keep track of these players.

[13] Chat handling/room use

  • Sort rooms by current members.
  • Hu: Semi-public rooms that anyone can join, but the room owner can exclude people individually. +
  • (Much) bigger history buffer for the chat windows. Make it configurable? ++
  • Timestamps
    • Timestamp on private chat window to show when the chat was initiated.+++++
    • Timestamp on every message in chat rooms, PMs, and game records. Game record timestamp doesn't need to be saved to the SGF, it should be a client side feature. + ++
      • Preferably the display of timestamps should be optional
  • Less annoying chat bell. Ability to set a user-defined wav/mps file for this; volume control.++
  • Tabbed boards, inserted alongside room tabs
  • Default room focus to last selected room at log-off and upon closing chat tab
  • Leave message button on player info screen and in private chat screen when player has disconnected.++?
  • Insert last 10-20 chats in a room when joining that room.++
  • Preference setting to block private chats while you're playing a game. ++
  • Confirmation that messages left for others were successfully sent. Ability to save and view messages sent to others.+
  • Ability to lock the chat box buffer window to review the buffer. ie: stop it from jumping to the bottom with every new chat.++++++
  • IRC ish rooms, including chanops and chat modes eg: +m (moderated). + +
  • Ability to close the chat-window on a board; perhaps better to be able to size it within a range the user prefers. wms says the size of the chat window is dictated by the size of the other elements, and that there's no reason to shrink the chat window (can't be bigger), except the annoyance of seeing chats; since this annoys a small minority only, will not be changed.
  • Bold user handles in chats.
  • Nick autocompletion ++
  • Optimize tab order to minimize rows of tabs; allow manual ordering of tabs. +
  • A simple way to implement a buddy 'pounce' would be to color code the chat tabs with a light-ish color that signifies 'online'. This would mean three total colors, grey, 'blue' for new text, and probably a very light blue for 'available'. This way you could leave chat open with all your friends, and see who's online by scanning colors. (not sure what this means, not summarized in WME...help.)
  • mgoetze: Ability to see who is the owner of a room.
  • Option to see joins/quits in selected chat rooms.
  • When trying to find a user - ability to query server for a name that start with "XYZ" and who is a stronger then Ak and weaker than Bk. Ability to recognize shortcuts like "*"
  • epilogue be able to resize the players list (as you can the chat window). this would permit users of low res screens to tailor the cgoban2 to their limited real estate.
  • Server interface to query online status of a user (e.g. return small "online"/"offline" pic appropriately; similar to the rank graph)

(Sebastian: [1301]) Improve Talk To - part 1: current bug. Currently: If A talks to B, and B has a game request open, then A's "Chat with B" window displays next to B's name: "(Playing a game)". This is misleading, since this situation is, contrary to being in a game, one that begs for talking with each other. Proposed changes: Either leave out the note when B is not actually playing or change it to "B is challenging such and such game". Optional: Direct link to that challenge.

(Sebastian:) Improve Talk To - part 2: further wish. Proposed: If A talks to B, and B is currently in a (timed and rated) game, then pop up a message for A: "B is currently playing in a (timed and rated) game. Please choose between one of the following:

  1. Postpone alert till right after the game is finished (default).
  2. This is urgent, send right away.
  3. Send this text as message instead. B will receive the message right after the game is finished.
  4. Cancel.
  • Add a way into a Talk to... session from the game challenge window or the user info window. Right now, if someone challenges you, there is no easy way to chat with them. Trying to find their name in a room list is not fun, plus not always possible with the open games list. And, using the "Leave Message" faculty is not great either, because you need to figure out how to spell the name (or copy+paste). In any case, this seems more difficult than it should be.
    • rubilia: I think it would be ok to find the same pull-down menu at the nicknames there like anywhere else ("chat to", "see info" etc.). To only switch colors by a menu feels like squandering rare recources to me. A small "change colors" button between the nicks would work fine (maybe even better). Rightclick at that little button could lock the colors - for those people who definitely want to take a particular color.
  • Would like to be able to set up shortcut keys for common phrases like, "Hi", "Thanks", and "Bye". This would be a great help for slow typists, and non-English speakers.
    • Neil: For what it's worth, I just hate the atmosphere that the canned speech on IGS gives. If my opponent doesn't speak English I'd rather be greeted in his own langauge anyway than to see the same, cold, emotionless macro used all the time.
    • rubilia: So do I. Particularly, the "'hi', 'thx', 'bye'" kind of games is what I really dislike at playing go online. Those encounters mostly feel even worse than if my opponent was a program (which is what I also choose, occasionally, but for exercise reasons only). Playing with a human-being, I want to communicate like a human-being - as far as this is possible using a text chat interface. If someone actually doesnīt want to greet, to thank or to say goodbye at all, and types nothing but the scary "'hi', 'thx', 'bye'" everytime, I wouldnīt care if he didnīt type anything, or used shortcut keys, or even had it typed automatically by software whenever entering/leaving a game. (Thereīs a difference if I suppose the talk to be deficient because of language problems, e. g. if the opponent uses a japanese client.) -- Sure, shortcut keys might be convenient to those people who like to use them. But please, if ever, make them configurable, at least!
  • Semi-private teaching games.
    • As I watched a teaching game between a 3P and a 4D, I couldn't help but notice that no one would shut up. I would like to see semi-private teaching games that work the same way ranked and free games work, where the players can't see what the observers are saying. The only difference would be that they would never see anything the observers said, even after the game was over. This would give the teacher and the student a chance to review the game and not be bothered by peoples comments, without having to go to the other extreme of a private game.
    • wms: Already there. In a teaching game, the teacher has a "quiet" checkbox is their editing tools; if they click the checkbox, then only they can talk. Then they can right-click on any name in the game list, select "Grant access", and that person can talk too. So, in any teaching game, the teacher can shut off all chatter any time they want, then selectively turn on chats from individual users. As a side note, a further improvement of this system is coming in release 2.5.8.

[14] Handling Nasties

  • Tags for guests and people with a lot of unfinished games. Autodetect of sandbaggers somehow.+
    • Most importantly, differentiate people who lose rank from escaping from people who choose not to be ranked.
  • Noplay option seperate from censor option.
  • Don't allow guests to chat/option to censor all guests. wms is dead set against the former option, and may be against the latter as well.
  • Allow unfinished free games to be cancelled if someone leaves. Possibly any other non-rated games as well. ++
  • Ability to ping users to see if someone has network problems or is just not responding.++
  • Ban people I've censored from talking in my games at all. This way when I go back and read later I won't have to read irritating comments from irritating people.
  • Make it possible to find an admin without going room-hopping.
  • When a censored commentator speaks during a game, do not display the move number unnecessarily.
  • Against escapers: never close a game when it is unfinished. To resume a game later you will have to make a compromise with your opponent.. by hitting a button like resume. (just like undo). when someone has network problems and is kicked of the server well then you probably have to put the game in the resume. Don't think many escapers will close internet to escape from a game. It's now too easy to escape.. --> close the window and hit ok
    • (Sebastian:) This is too severe, IMHO. But it leads to a good idea: How about handling close like an undo request: Display a message "Your opponent wants to close the game. What do you want to do: Close and forget; Postpone; Ask opponent to resign"
  • If you cancel during scoring, add 30 seconds to opponent's time. This is to prevent abusing the cancel button during scoring to force opponent to lose on time. Also, an upper limit on the number of times you can cancel during scoring.
    • All cases in my games at least are due to players not seeing that the territories were not fully closed off,and I suspect that in about 99% of the cases that is what happens. -TimBrent
  • When looking at a player's profile, show total number of games, unfinished games and percentage of games played against equal and weaker players. Quick reference so one does not need to search the game list. Players become a better judge of the opponent being worthy instead of the 10% rule and the tilde system. ++
  • There should be some report bad manners button in the game, and when u think your opponent is not manner, u can sign him, so u can see how many games of some players were signed as umanner+
  • Better system to encourage playing of ? ranked accounts. May not be an issue but I'm seeing alot of "No ?" in the game requests.
    • (Sebastian:) IMHO the worst experiences are with guests, because guest accounts are perfect for rude people. Many players want to avoid bad experiences, and therefore they just don't play anyone marked "?". The proposed "G" mark [2501] could help here and encourage people to switch from guest accounts to permanent accounts.Conversely, the current stigma on "?" accounts forces people to play rated 19x19 games (even if they would prefer to play small games, e.g. because they are beginners).
  • TJ: I'm rather disturbed to note a "better" system for handling escapers on KGS as of 2.5.6. This disturbs me because I remember a lot of discussion about this a while back. Now, if what folks are saying is true, if you leave 10 games first, you automatically resign any other games you might leave. Why is this instituted? Before there's a chance for an answer, here's why I've always said such measures shouldn't be.
    1. People aghast at the system previously in place generally were new to the server or people who really liked rules for the sake of rules. Several times I've had to ask "You've 3 (or less) unfinished games on your games list...out of 200. Why are you worried about escapers?" This basically means that
    2. There is currently no problem with escapers on KGS. Or rather, maybe it happens, but rarely enough that there's no PROBLEM with them. Why trouble the rest of us with some threat when no problem will be solved since:
    3. People who are jerks about escaping will just start a new account once they're branded. They're JERKS.:)
    4. The rest of us might now have an account for a few years and have left games first due to adjournments, some yutz deciding to take the dog for a walk in an untimed/slow-play game and sticking us until their client auto-disconnects (who's the real escaper there?), people swearing at us (yes, that's happened to me) or otherwise being a jerk, or for any random reason that occurs RL or online which doesn't mean the person is a habitual escaper (read JERKS). With an absolute number set, eventually we're forced to sadly retire old accounts we've had for years or be permanently flagged as escapers.
    5. New people don't know about escaping, and get strikes against them before they have learned how to/that it is necessary to resign.
    6. More rules and regulations and penalties means less freedom to just be nice because we're nice instead of because we'll be given a lethal injection if we don't toe the line. KGS is a nice place to visit most of the time because folks there are nice folks for the most part.
I've seen a place (a "cyberspace") go bad before because all the nice people got fed up with being constrained because there had to be "rules" made and enforced. wms runs KGS, and the admins...if someone isn't nice, chase them off the server. If they are nice, don't bust their chops for an accidental infraction. It's easier to find decently just admins/assisstants (and toss out the ones who turn out to not work well) than to make a legal system work without crushing the spirit of a culture. We've all been invited to play in your yard, if we don't play nice, send us home! If we don't like how you run the place, we can take all our toys and go home, right? It's not a country.^^ Not threatening to take all my toys and go home or anything...more like I'm suggesting certain other guests in your yard do so instead of bossing the host around and wrecking a good thing for all of us. Maybe that isn't what really happened here, but it just seems like a vocal minority called this shot. If I'm wrong, I'll eat a go stone or something.
  • Discussion on how many assistants, and how much/how often should assisstants police room chat moved to KGS Issues Discussion. --unkx80
  • Recognize that the "escaper problem" is nothing more that a bad etiquette issue and does not need any special "solution". All attempts at technical fixes to this "problem" are far more annoying that what they are attempting to fix. The ranking system itself is more than adequate for making escaping a useless endeavor. Please enlighten me as to why I am wrong about this.
    • rubilia: Have you ever played at dashn, for example? There ARE better ways than merely to disavow the problem people obviously do have with escapers. (No matter if I understand why it's a problem to them or not). An even less restrictive way than "the dashn one" would be to avoid a player to start a new game as long as s/he rejects to resume the unfinished one (while not playing). Heck, beside of that hardly any account would (nor could) escape more than once anymore, what's the hook of this model?
    • Neil: People who get fixated on the "problem" with "escapers" (and I used to be one of them) seem to miss the reason wms doesn't do anything about it: It is desired that someone is not required to complete a game against an ill-behaved opponent.
  • Autocensoring via collaborative filtering

[15] Design Discussion: Should Games be arranged by Chat?

  • Symbol to show player involved in a game in user list. However, may encourage people to arrange games by private chat. ("Game?").+
  • Ability to see if a person is playing/observing a game and where, unless the person forbids being tracked.++
    • Automatically see person's status by typeface/icons. This is against the design of KGS, for various very consciously decided upon reasons wms went into.
  • Don't put (Playing a game) in private chat windows when a person has placed an offer, but is not actually playing yet. (Waiting for a game), perhaps, (Challenging such and such a game). Direct link to said challenge?
  • Notification when a chat is sent to a person in a game, and options to postpone sending chat, don't send it, or send it anyways
  • Automatic matchmaking.
  • Merge game lists: whatever room tab I have selected, put in the game list all the games of all the rooms I have open. Make it optional with a checkbox in preferences. This would let me chat in the English Chat Room while keeping an eye on the interesting games of the French Room.

[16] New Users

  • I thought that maybe it would be useful if when a new user logs in for the first time he/she would get a popup that would give them quick instructions as to how to set up a game and what K and D are; A quick tutorial if you will. As anyone who spends time in the English room knows, we get at least a dozen questions like that an hour. I know there are help files, but most people are too lazy/unwilling to actually open them.
    • wms: As you point out, people don't read help. People don't read popups either if they are too long. The longer the popup, the less likely people are to read it. Right now, when a newbie comes, their popup tells them how to register. I don't want to make it longer - as it is, lots don't read it. so I'd have to get rid of that info to add the "what is k/what is d" info, and I'd have to say that registration instructions are more important that info on what k/d are. :-(
    • Rakshasa: Once they've registered and log in for the first time, they could get another short popup. And that one doesn't need to cover registering ;)
    • Planar: All that information could go into the registration mail. People are not forced to read it before proceeding but they can keep it for future reference, unlike a popup window.
    • Eratos: They can keep it for future reference, but they won't :(

[17] Privacy



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This is a copy of the living page "KGS Wishlist - Social" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2004 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.