![]() StartingPoints Referenced by
|
Japanese Go Terms Discussion
Keywords: Go term
A perennial topic here on SL is the use of Japanese go terms, technical or appreciative or simply for 'atmosphere'. Discussion has in the past been spread over a number of places.
SourcesThe Japanese terms used here tend to come up naturally in discussion. Various lists have been compiled in the past: There are many web sites, but numerous instances of material copied from one list to another, often perpetuating misconceptions or mistranslations. It would be a large job to collate all the discussions of individual terms on SL to make a definitive dictionary (the more so because a single term such as kikashi can lead to ramifying explanations). Put it another way: you might have to write the encyclopedic version first, to extract a reliable dictionary. Four-language dictionaryHighly desirable would be then to extend to a dictionary taking in Chinese and Korean terms, with the same depth of discussion. It seems unlikely that the initiative will be taken on this by any of the East Asian go institutions. An example of the difficulties can be seen on the shudan and haengma pages. DougRidgway Just to add some discussion here, on the use of Japanese go terms in English writing: my perspective is that any word used by writers of English is an English word, so for example both shicho and ladder are English words, and are available for use. Of course, the English meaning of a word with a foreign etymology can (and often does) differ from that of the foreign word in its original language. Different authors and translaters make different choices, sometimes depending on context. Myself, for pedagogical or technical writing, I much prefer the home-grown terms over the imported ones. I find they stick in my brain better, are more helpful conceptually, and avoid endless irrelevant discussions as to whether the English "keima" is truly capturing the full essence of what native Japanese speakers mean by keima. For artistic writing, it depends on context: having Hikaru and Sai say "komoku" for 3-4 point, "hand" for "move", etc., does an excellent job of conveying the cultural milieu. Dieter: A point that I have tried to make in the past is this: the very same argument that you use to favour English terms we (Ishi-bred) non-native speakers apply to defend Japanese terms. The whole point is whether we are on equal terms when it comes to writing here. For me, acquiring "knight's move" for "keima" is more work, not less. A big argument in favour of English terms however, is the advent of Korean grown theory and books, which obviously show some reluctance to use Japanese terms. So I have got over it. Charles Writing in jargon is always OK for experts talking to experts. But most writing on go can't afford to be like that. HolIgor: There is one other consideration that can be important for the international site like this. People tend to have their own languages. Those languages borrowed some Japanese terms and translated the others. For example, Russians use the Japanese term hasami. It was not translated, no Russian word was adopted to include this meaning. Then when reading an English book one encounters 'pincer'. What is that? It is far more difficult to understand. Furthermore, it is stupid to translate the English term. This means, that when you want to translate an English article into Russian for your friends, you have to replace all 'pincers' with 'hasami'. The term 'nets' is even a worse example. While 'pincer' carries the same meaning, the meaning of 'nets' is quite far from the image of the wooden sandals. Shimari more understandable than 'corner inclosure'. At the same time Russian go literature almost does not use 'hiraki', 'watari', 'uchikomi', 'oba'. Yet, some other languages prefer these terms. Charles Firstly, it is true that SL has a very international, multi-lingual readership and group of contributors, amongst English-language wikis: perhaps one of the most varied, if you look at native language, and this is something to be proud of. It is still an English-language wiki (mostly, though this seems not to be agreed policy). Therefore it shouldn't be a problem to have page names that are English terms, with Japanese and other terms available as translations and aliases. Everyone should understand that Chinese and Korean players find English terms (for discussion of go in English) more acceptable than Japanese terms. Most non-anglophone Europeans have positive feelings about use of Japanese terms. So, no way of settling this will be perfect. By the way, is that 'gasami' or 'khasami'? HolIgor: khasami, if you can produce that sound. Explanation: Russian language does not have 'h' sound and Russians are very inconsistent in pronouncing English words with 'H'. Sometimes they replace it with G, sometimes with another sound (it has no English equivalent and is usually transribed as 'KH' in English texts). Ukrainian language does have 'H' sound but many terms came into Ukrainian through Russian and these sounds have become 'KH' anyway. So, it is 'khasami' rather than 'hasami' in Ukrainian, if you are not purist, of course. Charles Thanks, I studied Russian at school. I last tried it on Lazarev. John F. I never cease to be amazed at the strong feelings that go terminology arouses, not because of the implicit nationalism - that I can easily accept - but because those who shout the loudest are often those who have never wrestled with actually writing for other go players. In practice there is a simple solution, which many of us do use. You choose your term and then you either define it or give an alias. Why do so many people get hot under the collar about that? BobMcGuigan: Japanese go terms are sometimes hard to use correctly. For example hane and osae. People use one when they should use the other. But even from dictionary definitions it is easy to see how they could be confused. See Hane versus osae. When Japanese Go terms get misused by English speaking players. This is a copy of the living page "Japanese Go Terms Discussion" at Sensei's Library. ![]() |