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6 November 2002

SAS: Someone keeps fiddling about with the Homepages page (including [ext] deleting it entirely at one point). Perhaps the page could be locked now that it no longer needs manual maintenance.

4 November 2002

Hu: Thank you Arno for looking into it. Unfortunately, I don't know when they happened exactly other than probably about six days ago and ten days ago. I didn't make a note of the day or time because I've edited other pages before and had no troubles. Based on your analysis, I guess I must have not posted the edits, on two different days.

2 November 2002

Hu: Thanks to unkx80 for confirming my suspicion that this page was too long and thus showing me the way out.

Hu: I probably have this all wrong and would gladly be enlightened, but I feel agrieved. What am I not understanding? It seems to me that I have put time and effort into editing the Beginner Study Section only to find that a day or two later they seem to have been completely erased by somebody reverting to a previous version and then making edits of their own. This has happened at least twice.

Will the person who is reverting to previous versions of that page thereby erasing my edits from the version history please stop, cease and desist. Surely if you disagree with an edit you have the right to "edit it back". If this is done without reverting to the previous version, then others can see exactly what changes were made and by whom. It seems cowardly and nasty to repeatedly remove edits by reverting versions so that the edits are totally lost and the time the person put into thinking about them wasted and unrecorverable.

The name of the person who made the original edits (Hu) that were destroyed doesn't even appear in the history because someone is exploiting the way SL php code collapses multiple edits into a single version. Because there is no record of the destroyed edits and the editors name is destroyed along with them, it is cowardly of the eraser to do this because one can't then be sure who even the eraser is! I was gently upbraded by the masters for destroying history by transferring instead of requesting renaming, and it seems to me that this is a similar transgression, but only worse, because my name (and effort) is deleted and the deleter is not identifiable.

I probably have this all wrong and would gladly be enlightened.

Arno: Hu, I cannot verify your problem. It would help me to identify the problem if you told me exactly when you edited and saved BeginnerStudySection.

About the wiki engine: noone can erase edits from the page history. I.e. if you really edited a page, then it has to show up in the page history. Versions are only collapsed if the same author edits a page. Same author means same IP address and same name (if set). Even then at least one version with your name and IP address remains in the history. As you have set your name and protected it with a password noone but you could edit a page and be listed as HuOfKGS.

The wiki engine could of course have an error. But I verified two ways: there's one write-only table which logs all edits (even minor edits and edits which are collapsed later on) - no entry for Hu & BeginnerStudySection. Then I checked the web server log - something noone can change. I see edits on

 216.175.94.183 - - [31/Oct/2002:04:19:51 +0100]
 216.175.94.183 - - [31/Oct/2002:04:40:47 +0100]
 216.175.91.208 - - [02/Nov/2002:17:19:35 +0100]

but there is no corresponding POST for the edits. Seems to me like you pressed edit, but never pressed save??


1 November 2002

SteffenGlueckselig: I was trying to link a picture with a describing text - something equivalent to <a href="picture.png">image</a>. I used [text|address of picture] but that just inlined the picture. I couldn't use thumbnails [address of thumbnail|picture], either. Is this not implemented? Is there another way to do it?

Arno: no it's not implemented. The bracket syntax ([]) is used for inlining the picture (as you already found out). Thumbnails are not supported. I don't think there is very much need for such a feature, is there?

SteffenGlueckselig: Right, there is not much need for thumbnailing pictures. I just tryed out if that would work.
I'd guess there could be a need for 'hiding' pictures behind textual links, though.

27 October 2002

unkx80: Apparently there is a bug in the generation of SGF from SL diagrams when the move number do not start from 1. When I download such SGFs and use JagoClient 4.43 to open, it reports java.io.IOException. Apparently it is caused by the string of one or more empty square brackets in the SGF like the following:

  [];[];[];[];

Deleting these empty brackets will make the SGF work on JagoClient 4.43 but the moves get lost. I am using Windows XP, and IE 6, in case you need to know the information.

Arno: fixed. Some hundred diagrams were affected. Let me know if there are still broken SGFs somewhere. SGF now also contain overlapping moves where possible: if the title indicates e.g. "8 at 4" then move 8 will be added to the SGF as well. Example see last diagram of KanazawaSolution62.

unkx80: Thanks a lot! Will inform you if I come across other broken SGFs.

26 October 2002

Dieter: Bullets mix up with diagrams. Drawing a line to avoid that is not always desirable.

Arno: looks like a browser bug to me. Or do you see something wrong in the HTML? I'm not very fond of adding work-arounds for bugs in browsers. Suggestions?

Dieter: I would think that I work from a very common platform. Newly bought PC with XP and IE 6. Am I the only one seeing the bullets in the outline of the diagram ?

Arno: IE6 or not: it is still a browser bug (btw, Mozilla on Linux has the same problem). Anyway, work-arounds for bugs in browsers are bad. Period. Nonetheless, I increased the right margin of tables to 1em. That should dilute the problem a little bit, and is still a reasonable choice for HTML compliant browsers.

19 October 2002

Arno (for SAS): will check both once we have moved to our new server. Also, please contact me by email if you'd like to have librarian access.

SAS: Thanks, I have written you an email.

SAS: It's impossible to restore version 7 of High or Low from the page history. (Viewing version 7 just shows "a:1:{i:0;i:33;}". Viewing earlier versions gives an error.)

Arno: Fixed HighOrLow. I deleted all the talk after the WikiVandal as well. Was anything else destroyed?

18 October 2002

SAS: It would be nice if there were an option in User Preferences to make "minor edit" the default.

Arno: done.

SAS: Thanks.

14 October 2002

SAS: The title L+2 Group works even though "+" is not listed as one of the allowed characters. (While I'm here I'll put in a renewed request for ampersands and colons, for [Slate & Shell] and [Keshi and Uchikomi: Reduction and Invasion in Go].)

Discussion moved from Library Lobby:

Dieter: Can't we move the content of Invasion Itinerary to the invasion page ? It looks like unnecessary branching.

Charles Matthews The same reasoning would say Pincer Path gets moved to pincer, too. I think it's being argued that we need more paths. Isn't it better to have them distinct from introductory pages on a topic? I actually prefer more and shorter pages, each doing one task well.

SAS: I don't like paths, so I would agree with Dieter's suggestion.

Charles Matthews Sounds like we need more opinions, and not just about joseki.

Dieter: The itinerary does the job of the introductory page and lists related pages. The example on the introductory page could be an example page on itself.

Sounds like we need more opinions. Sure. Though other people may state their opinion in a way we don't like, or touch topics that we feel not relevant.

Charles Matthews I have moved the introductory paragraph from Invasion Itinerary to invasion, to see if that looks better.

As for the other comments, I don't see that anyone is compelled to use a path as more than an index page. I had a look at the median distance from the front page - that's four; with plenty of pages at distance five or six. Which would be too much unless they really are 'deep reference'. So, we need more index pages, no? And Dieter, we can be a little corner of Usenet (sounds like what you're describing) if that's what you really want ...

Arno: Charles, just let me take this opportunity to say thanks for all the paths you have created so far. I think that they are very useful for anyone who would like to browse the library for a certain topic. SAS: is there anything special which you don't like? How could paths be improved?

SAS: It's just that I've never found paths useful, only a nuisance. (They are a nuisance because of the URLs. When I'm not connected to the Internet I've often had trouble finding a page which I know I have in cache, due to only having it under some pathified URL. This doesn't usually happen now, because if I'm in a path I usually edit the URL and reload the page to avoid the problem - but this is a nuisance too.) I don't have any suggestions for improving paths, but I would like to see a "no paths" option in User Preferences.

DaveSigaty: Can't we move this discussion out of the Lobby? We wouldn't want to give new comers the wrong impression, would we? Come on everybody (small pushing motion with hands) back to Guinea Pigs Feedback where you belong... :-)

Dieter: Go ahead, Dave, but Guinea... is more for technical discussions whereas I just had a question about content management.

Dave: Depending on how you see content management fitting into a library (and how the discussion has proceeded), I would say it might end up on Guinea, MetaDiscussion, or FutureUseOfSL. As the original author, any preference?

3 October 2002

SAS: Would it be possible for the HTML title (the thing between the <title> and </title> tags) to be the same as the title shown on the page itself? At the moment it just does its own thing, which often isn't very sensible (e.g., Kogo's Joseki Dictionary has the title "Kogo SJoseki Dictionary").

Arno: done.

SAS: Thanks! I've just noticed that the same thing occurs at the bottom of the page, e.g., "Kogo SJoseki Dictionary last edited by SAS".

dieter: we could as well leave out that bottom comment. All pages are last edited by SAS anyway. #:-7

Arno: done

29 September 2002

Dieter: Arno has been so thoughtful to render a list of WikiOrphans. If two pages refer to eachother but aren't referred to by any other page, they are WikiIslands?. Do any islands of two or more pages exist?

Arno: maybe. Pages which cannot be reached from FrontPage are the only candidates. I guess I'll recalculate DistanceFromFrontPage and PagesByDistance.

23 September 2002

SAS: When I edit a large page, random blank lines tend to disappear. (See, for example, my previous edit of this page. Usually I notice and put them back in, but that time I didn't.)

Arno: does this happen to anyone else as well? Never happened to me, or at least I didn't realize it. I'm not sure this is a problem of SL - might be your browser?

23 September 2002

Is Undefined Pages being updated? Many of the pages listed there now do exist. Charles Matthews

SAS: This is the same problem I reported on 25 August. The page is updated after 3 hours, but the only way I can get an updated copy of it is to delete the old one from my browser cache.

OK, it does work for me after cleaning out the browser cache. Charles Matthews

Arno: Problem is that unless you force a reload (in Netscape/Mozilla by using shift+reload) you will see the old page. Don't know how to force a reload within IE). Alternatively, caching for that page could be disabled, just like FullRecentChanges.

Charles: It is good motivation to see the pages disappearing as defined; but I can live with things as they are.

SAS: One way to get an updated copy is just to edit the page and save it without making any changes.

which is of course not a solution I recommend :o) Try what unkx80 describes below e.g. on MostPopular (which suffers a similar problem) - see if the hitcount of e.g. the MostPopular-page itself changes. If that works for you, then everything is fine. If not you may sit behind a transparent proxy. In that case I would have to change SL's behaviour. --Arno

unkx80: In Internet Explorer, hold down the CTRL button and click Refresh.

SAS: Thanks! That works for MostPopular at least. (I see from MostPopular that RecentChanges junkies far outnumber us FullRecentChanges junkies.)

Charles: Anyone care enough to create a FullRecentChangesJunkies page? We could discuss there my own b(urn)i(n)g question marks: secret identities, who needs them? Is Matthew Woodcraft a real person? What's the big attraction of Bishop's Stortford?

Indeed. Add to that: why do dans hide behind kyu and kyus behind dan accounts on KGS, and nobody seems to notice?

Charles: Good point - except OT and quite a few people (and smurfs) noticed.

12 September 2002

The syntax for getting paths to link up properly seems very touchy. One has to avoid linking to alias names of pages, also one must adopt the same spacing as in the page name ... anything else? Punctuation? I'm learning this in a hit-and-miss way.

Charles Matthews

Arno: I will check this. Both linking to aliases and independence of spacing should be possible. If not I will fix it (most likely this weekend.) Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Arno: fixed. If you still experience problems, please let me know.


7 September 2002

Moonprince: Novice question here... if there is some place else that explains this already, please direct me, but I didn't find the answer I needed in the Wiki help pages about links/adding pages. I edited the KamiNoItte page, but no link showed up from my name to my personal page. I thought this happened automatically? Or was I supposed to do something to make that link occur? Thanks for bearing with a neophyte.

unkx80: You have to add it manually, such as KamiNoItte or Kami No Itte.


7 September 2002

DaveSigaty: Something unusual seems to have happened sometime in the past to HikaruNoGoGames. If you look at the page history, it shows no updates from February 10, 2002 to June 1, 2002. Yet I know that I updated it in the mean time. In particular, I know that I added the one-colour Go game in chapter 120 prior to the time that the Hikaru No Go Gorgeous Character Guide came out in April 2002. I was surprised when Jan added it again but when I checked the history it did not show up. Could there have been a database problem sometime in the Spring?

ArnoHollosi: Dave, I checked and to the best of my knowledge we do/did not have problems with the database. Apparently, HikaruNoGoGames was not edited in the period you mention. I find no trace anywhere. You edited several Hikaru related pages in that time frame. One mention of the one-colour go shows up on the HikaruNoGo page itself. Unfortunately, I don't have the web logs anymore to cross-check there. Can't help on this one.


2 september 2002

Dieter: I discovered that at the moment changes are not logged into RecentChanges when the same page afterwards is edited with the MinorEdit checkbox checked.

Stefan: That's odd. I did exactly that (change "Yo Kagen 8 dan" to "Yo Kagen 9 dan", and it does show up.

Arno: Dieter, the behaviour you describe is highly unlikely. That would imply that the MinorEdit function removes the entry from RecentChanges - howver that is not the case. I cannot reproduce this behaviour. Maybe your browser showed you a cached version of RecentChanges?

Dieter: With hindsight it is likely but still rather coincidental that I only changed pages which I afterwards changed with a minor edit while sitting in front of a machine whose browser was caching whereas I usually do not. No big deal anyway.


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