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Names in Go Discussion
   

Lengthy discussion moved from Names in Go.

A note on 'oriental' names: it is customary in the far east to present oneself with the surname (family name) first, followed by the first name. E.g. Ishida Yoshio should be thought of as Mr. Ishida in english speaking terms. Yoshio is his first name.

(Cultural note: in France, where names like Phillipe Robert can often be found, it is customary to capitalise the surname to avoid any confusion. Our friend Phillipe will therefore see his name spelt Phillipe ROBERT.)

TakeNGive: I've begun capitalizing surnames on this page. I'm assuming the Asian names mostly are listed familyname-first. Anyone who notices a mistake, please fix it. Also, what's customary with "van der Steen" -- should it be VAN DER STEEN, or van der STEEN, or what? Similar question for "van Zeijst". (Apologies for my ignorance...)

SAS: You've capitalized all the single names (like Shusaku), but most of these are not surnames. I have to admit that I don't like the idea of capitalizing surnames anyway. It's ugly. It destroys case distinctions - e.g., would MACFADYEN mean MacFadyen, or would it mean Macfadyen?. It also assumes that the concept of a surname is universally meaningful.

TakeNGive: Hmmm, I didn't realize "Shusaku" wasn't his adopted "family" name... it's a nickname, then? Or something like a nom de plume? Corrections and clarifications are welcome.

I disagree with you about the aesthetic ugliness of capitalization, but I concede that all caps loses meaning that can be conveyed by case. In my opinion, it's worthwhile to trade that rare specialized meaning for ease in distinguishing the family name. After all, when appropriate, the more linked article can delve into the finer points of the person's name. However, if my view is in the minority, I'll happily restore mixed case. (Would something like "MacFADYEN" be an acceptable compromise?)

I'm not familiar with a go-playing culture that doesn't identify individuals (at least partly) by family name, so I'm not sure why a surname would be meaningless. Could you expound, please?

SAS: Shusaku's surname was Kuwahara. "Shusaku" was the personal name he adopted early on. Later he became Honinbo Shusaku. (You could possibly consider "Honinbo" to be a surname. What exactly is your definition of a surname?) Similarly, Shuho was Murase Shuho, later Honinbo Shuho.
As for your last question: by capitalizing surnames you seem to be assuming not only that everyone has a well-defined surname, but also that this is necessarily the most significant part of their name. I think Nikkai and Nichiren may be examples of people who did not have surnames, but I'm not sure. Shusaku is an example of someone whose surname is less significant than his personal name.
What do you intend doing with the surname "van der Steen"? It's currently listed above as "Van Der STEEN", which is surely wrong whichever way you look at it.

splice: I strongly disagree with SAS's assumption that capitalizing surnames means that it is necessarily the most significant part of their name. I believe it's a well established way of writing names so that there is no confusion between what the person's surname and personal name. It is commonly used in French, and I've seen it used often for Japanese names. The "Philippe Robert" example is great for that; both parts of the name are very common personal names, and I have also seen them both in surnames. Since we are listing a variety of names here, both surname first and surname last, according to nationality, the capitalization of surnames makes it much clearer for everyone. If someone has no clear surname, just leave the name as is, not capitalized ("Nikkai" should be fine, or we could list him as "HONINBO Sansa"). And going by all of this, I'd vote for "Jan VAN DER STEEN" (if my assumption that his surname is "Van Der Steen" is correct).

SAS: OK, I'm outvoted 2 to 1. Someone needs to go through and check that the names which are capitalized in the above list are actually surnames (and that those which are not, are not). I've changed some which appeared wrong, but I haven't checked everything carefully.

TakeNGive: Thanks for the edits, SAS. For Shusaku and similar, I'm willing to insert nee where known... (Shusaku nee KUWAHARA). Or would that make things worse?

AvatarDJFlux If by nee you mean the French for born I'm sorry to say it is wrong: the French verb naître (to be born) has the past participle if it is referred to a male, and née if referred to a female...

Regarding "Jan Van Der STEEN", someone please correct me, but isn't it normally "Jan van der Steen", so capitalizing surnames, wouldn't "Jan van der STEEN" be the way to go? (In a few days, after a quorum of library patrons has had time to notice and comment, I propose to move this to a new page -- NamesInGoStandardNomenclatureDiscussion? or the like.)

SAS: I think Shusaku's surname remained Kuwahara until he became Honinbo Shusaku, so "Shusaku nee KUWAHARA" would be a little misleading. As for Jan van der Steen, the "van der" is part of the surname, by any reasonable definition of what constitutes a surname.
By the way, what have you got against simply listing the surname first in all cases, with commas where appropriate ("Redmond, Michael", "Yi Ch'ang-ho", "Honinbo Shusaku", "van der Steen, Jan", etc.)? This is a very common convention, and makes sense considering that we are listing the names in alphabetical order of surname. It avoids the problem of capitalization destroying case distinctions. And IMHO it's also less ugly (especially as most names in the list naturally have the surname first anyway).
I agree this discussion should eventually be moved to a discussion page.

TakeNGive: Listing surname-first in all cases seems, to me, to distinguish the family name less explicitly than capitalization. However, in a list of this kind, I think the most important thing is to use consistently whatever standard we agree is best. If most Library folk prefer (the reasons you give are good ones), then I'm quite happy to have consistently "family name first" with commas for the Western names. The only trouble is that sometimes it's not clear to me whether an Asian author (for example) has adopted the Western name order, or is using the traditional family-name first name order. But presumably a bit of consultation with those more knowledgeable should solve that problem.

Shusaku was not nee anything as he was male (the androgynous nature of Fujiwara no Sai notwithstanding). The names for him are as follows (his father was called Yasuda but he married in to a richer family called Kuwahara): Kuwahara Torajiro 1829~1835, Yasuda Eisai 1835~1841, Yasuda Shusaku 1841~1848, Kuwahara Shusaku 1848, Honinbo Shusaku 1848~1862. In only 5 games was he known as Kuwahara Shusaku. Invincible is misleading in this respect, although John Power was following the then latest Japanese collected games edition. The newest edition has corrected all this. It is standard practice in Japan even today to name people who belong to schools such as Honinbo by their style (Shusaku). The situation was complicated in ancient Japan as not everyone was entitled to a surname. The simplest way to find out which name is the surname is to get my MASSIVE Names Dictionary on the GoGoD CD. John Fairbairn.

TakeNGive: Would it be "Shusaku ne KUWAHARA Torajiro" then? (Sorry for my ignorance..) I have the GoGoD CD; at home, where it doesn't help when I'm at work messing with SL. But since I've taken an interest in the NamesInGo page, I can make a practice of consulting it before editing here. John, what's your opinion of the capitalization question?

Reply from John F. I'm not sure that my view carries any weight, but for what it's worth I too think caps are ugly and occasionally misleading - the given name is often the preferred one. And while the notion of making things clearer for the reader is laudable, I also believe that at some point it is fair to expect readers to learn at least a little about history and others' customs etc, When I first came across Catalin Taranu I didn't know which was the surname and would have appreciated a guide. But practising what I've preached I did take the trouble to find out - I asked him personally! Capitalisation fails, anyway, in some historical cases because there are players known only by their given names (in China as well as Japan). As to ne and nee, of course ne is gender correct but the usage is maybe a little precious, not least because if you are trying to be precise you'd have to accept that he wasn't ne anything at all as he wouldn't have a surname at birth. At best he would be simply entered in a family register, and then probably only after the age of two or something like that (nobody made formal records until babies had passed the critical infant mortality stage). Remember too that it has not been definitively established whether it was Kuwahara or Kuwabara.


SAS: Rin Kaiho is listed under China, but Go Seigen is under Japan. This is clearly inconsistent. I had no idea where I should add Jiang Zhujiu and Chan Ka Yui. We need to work out what this division into countries is supposed to mean (and if it's even useful, bearing in mind that the information should be given on the page about the person anyway).

TakeNGive: Now that I've looked at NamesInGo after the restoration of mixed case, I have to admit... it looks better. Also, I agree about the confusing issue of nationality... Redmond, Michael plays in Japan, but was born in USA; Kim, Janice was born in USA, but is a Korean pro, but plays mostly in USA... Go Seigen (Wu?) was born in China, but played mostly in Japan... I'm not sure how to make it less misleading / more useful. Focus on place of birth? citizenship? or place of professional accreditation, if any? Alternatively, don't try to group by country?

SAS: Having thought about it, I would prefer not to group by country. This at least makes things simple.

SAS: Unless someone objects, I intend to ungroup them next week.
SAS: Done.


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