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BQM33
    Keywords: Question, MiddleGame

Recently I violated the "Don't push on the fourth line" in the following situation, thinking I was profitting at least as much as my opponent. Was this a bad idea? My positional judgement skills aren't good enough for me to tell if this was better for me, it was just my best guess. Shown is the push, then the endgame position. The results was a loss for me by 3.5 with komi, so if komi wasn't there, I would have won. --BlueWyvern

[Diagram]
Diag.: Black's Fourth Line Push

Some personal opinions here.

I won't say that Black 1 to 7 is totally unplayable, it's actually quite an interesting idea, but I definitely don't recommend this kind of play. It hands more than 20 points of definite territory to white, but the amount of territory black can make on the left is unclear.

It is not easy to capture a white invasion into the black moyo. I can tell that you succeeded, but probably white had made some mistakes in the process. :-)

--unkx80

DaveSigaty: Objectively I agree with unkx80. But on the other hand I think that conceiving this idea and going ahead with trying to implement it in the middle of a game are absolutely great! It is a pity actually that B came up just short here. If there were any justice on the Go board, you opponent would have conceded defeat purely out of admiration for your imagination :-) Well done, I say.



BillSpight: Well, I like to build walls and moyo, but I wouldn't try this. A double kakari looks too good.

But I do not want to discourage your invention and exploration. A good part of strength at go lies in seeing possibilities that others do not. Keep it up!

Small Question Mark: Where should W 10 be? I think maybe a. Or is that too deep? Too close to the wall?


Well, my thinking for this whole thing was this: A white invsion has nowhere to go but out to the right. Getting a base against the edge would prove to be near impossible given the positioning of black 3rd line stones, and Black can attack any stones trying to live from the sides fairly freely. So White is stuck figuring out how far in he can drop it my estimate for the safety zone seemed to leave me ahead in the exchange, however, I lost the game. So I asked the question out of curiosity as to whether this is where I lost it, or if it was further on in the game.


Bill: After B 9 the game looks close to me. Black is ahead on the board, but with komi and White's having sente with plays worth about 10 points, it's hard to call. W 10 is way too deep, however, so Black should win from there, I think.

Arno: So what are the alternatives to B1? Bill mentioned a double kakari, how about enlarging the moyo with something like this?

[Diagram]
Diag.: An alternative?

In this diagram W still has a weak point around 'a'. I guess this is basically the same idea, but leaves more aji for both sides, no?

The problem is of course the low position of B's marked stone. If it would be on the 4th line I'd play like this without hesitation. As it stands, W has room for nice reducing moves. Note however, that W's corner will not get as large as in the game.



Bill: Interesting idea, Arno. :-)
But I don't like W 4. Surely this is better.

[Diagram]
Diag.: Moyo frontier

W 4 plays on the moyo frontier, enlarging her own at the expense of Black's. If B 3 is at 4, W b is big. If W c - B b, we have a similar position to the one in the game, a little better for Black, I think.

W4 is definitely better than my suggestion - I guess my W4 was wishful thinking :o) --Arno

[Diagram]
Diag.: What about 3?

I like Arno's move at 1, but in my view, the follow up should be at 3 in this dia and not at a. If white answers at c (he probably should), black should play b and the lower left corner remains open.

-- AlainWettach

Interesting idea, I like. 8)

However, I suppose white can treat a and c as miai, and invade into black's moyo immeidately?

--unkx80

Yes, you are right, fighting spirit calls for a white play at b after 3 and see what damage black can cause with c. The point b is huge for both, if Black plays there, the marked stones become part of the moyo border and if white is allowed to play b, they become a target. On the other hand, if white allows a black move at c after 3, the marked white stones might also become a target. Maybe the safest way would be for black to play 3 at b. This is quite difficult, and I really don't know which is bigger 3 or b. Anyway, I am sure that both points are bigger than a.

-- AlainWettach


[Diagram]
Diag.: Double kakari

For a double kakari I like B 1. Lower, and White can build up strength to invade or reduce Black's moyo. Closer, and W a is effective motare. Black's idea is to solidify his territory on the left side while attacking, at the same time preventing White's moyo on the bottom and even putting some pressure on the marked White stones.


[Diagram]
Diag.: Double kakari redux

Hmmm. Looking at this again, I wonder if the boshi of B 5 is not better than B a?



[Diagram]
Diag.: Endgame position 11 captures each side, komi 5.5


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