BQM 240

    Keywords: Question

I am interested as to what people's opinions are of W10. This deviation from joseki was played by the Russian Professional player Alexandre Dinerchtein.

Only the lower right corner is included for the minute, because i'd like to discuss just the joseki itself without specifics positions across the board.

I am concerned that white is playing into a shoulder hit, and seemingly leaving the possiblity of making a base more remote.

19x19 diagram  

Calvin: Interesting. If white is very strong in the upper right maybe black a could be made heavy. I can't understand it otherwise. I'm looking forward to stronger players' comments, or for the rest of the board to be shown.

Velobici: Joseki are locally even results taking into account who played first in the corner, where the first stone was located et cetera. Deviation from joseki may be warranted or even dicated based upon the whole board situation. Given that Alexandre Dinerchtein is a professional, we are going to learn when this deviation is better for white than the joseki.

White's Hope?  

Mef: Perhaps he was trying to end up with something like this? after W4 his shape looks pretty safe to me, so I think he might be able to either take sente/ try to attack the top stones. Even without that though, if white has a strong position in the upper right limiting B's extenstion, I think even just getting white+circle might be reasonable, especially if white didn't have the ladder to begin with.

IanDavis: I suppose that play would give White a substantial corner, but isn't it too focused on territory? (Black having walls on both sides)

Dieter: I actually think it is a trick play. See below. If Black plays calmly as in the above, the marked stone can be captured.

Another choice?  

Calvin: Maybe black would prefer to play B1 in this case. Then what is white's best continuation?

Mef: I'm certainly not one capable of saying best, but I'd say maybe exchange W2 for B3, and then focus on the right side.

Calvin: Really? Is W2 sente after B1? It hurts white+circle. How about a directly?

Rich: If white gets to play at 3, she's connected. Black plays this joseki to get influence along the bottom; white is prepared to sacrifice white+circle for a base and some influence along the side. In answer to the original question - since this joseki's already underway the lower side must be interesting for black, so either play solidly as Dieter suggests below, or turn above B7 in the original diagram. Without the whole board, though, it's hard to say; and whatever we say, I think a professional like Alexandre Dinerchtein probably knows better...


Standard joseki per Kogo's Joseki Dictionary 27 March 2005.
Variations for W1 include the location of W3 (inferior to W1) and a (considered vulgar).

Dave: The comment on W3 being inferior to W1 seems very dated. Since the 1990's W3 before W1 has become the standard sequence in professional play by a wide margin.

jantiff: matters are not that clear. Guo Juan and Jiang MingJiu taught the following in Ing Goe Internet Class:

Dubious exchange  

The W1/B2 exchange reduces aji from white+circle, and Black can afford to answer W3 at B4.

Alternate order  

So White goes W1 first. If Black solidly connects at B2, then White may play W3 with a clear conscience.

jantiff: the following seems quite reasonable to me. Black gets profit while White makes good shape on the side, hurting black+circle and leaving white+circle intact.

Fair exchange ?  

Game position  

Dieter: I would be tempted to cut at B1. Up to B10 I prefer Black.


Dieter: This looks better for White. The purpose of the marked play must somehow to enable W8. If Black doesn't fall for the trick, then the marked stone will end up weak. But I'm sure I'm missing Alexandre's point.

Yi Se-tol - Kim Kang-keun 2004-05-12  

Dave: Yi played W1 at a later point in the standard sequence in the 30th Wangwi against Kim. Of course if Black answers W1 at 3, White will be able to extend in the corner at 2 without being cut at a. Black's answer at B2 in the corner seems natural but White gets to undercut the right side as compensation.

BQM 240 last edited by Dieter on July 5, 2008 - 12:48
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