Discussion for Tamsins A Cautionary Tale page.
Scartol: I generally like it. As an avid fictionist myself (see http://www.just-text.org), I know how hard it is to find genuine, constructive feedback, so I'll try to provide some here. (Whether it is, I'll let others decide.)
Your mention at the outset of similarities to HNG may have prejudiced my thinking, but the presence of the ghost/spirit; the sudden interest in Go for someone who had never played; and the rapid (and hard-for-others-to-believe) display of skill are all reminiscent. I'm very interested in reading a more true-to-life story of how someone becomes interested.
The switch from chess to Go doesn't have much of an impact on me as a reader. It would be good to show a little more of Caitlin's love for chess at the beginning, the better to contrast her newfound interest in Go. Also, the name Uncle Sam is a bit awkward, calling to mind as it does (for me at least) the icon of American patriotism.
The dialogue isn't bad -- one of the hardest things to write, I find. However, you're using a lot of colorful verbs in the place of "said" (ie, "murmured," "commanded," "snapped," etc). These mostly distract from the flow of the discussion. "He said," "She said" is just fine and in fact keeps the focus on the words being spoken, rather than the narrative.
Or just leave out the verb. -- Sebastian
In the two years I've been captivated by Go, I've not yet written about it (with the exception of my cartoon introduction), for two reasons:
Like I said, this is good overall and I hope you keep writing it -- I'll definitely keep reading it.
Tamsin: Thanks Scartol. I suppose I did rather unashamedly rip certain things off from Hikaru No Go, but as I say my intention is to make a more serious point, although that may not become apparent until much later on. For now, I will say that Caitlin is not going to turn out to be a loveably cheeky character like Hikaru.
Maybe I should change Sam Wang's first name. I did not mean to invoke the "Uncle Sam" of the red and white top hat-wearing variety. On the other hand, I'm trying to think of the kind of English first names that Chinese Americans, Korean Americans and Japanese Americans might choose to use. Somehow, "Algernon Wang", for instance, doesn't ring true!
Second thoughts, though. One of the themes in my mind is the clash between Caitlin's self-identification as an "All-American Girl" and her actual identity as a member of an ethnic minority. So, the presence of an "Uncle Sam" might not be such a bum note here.
mgoetze: Hm, to be honest, it reads a bit more like a drama than a novel so far. In a novel I would expect more in-depth descriptions of characters, places etc., as well as more depictions of emotional reactions (as in, "she ran out of the room, upset. How could he do this to her! Her only thought for the rest of the night was..." and so on). Of course, for all I know, you are only building a rough moyo of a story and plan to flesh it out into territory later?
As a more specific suggestion, the following bit is extremely hard to imagine for me:
"I just want to try it, alright?" snapped Caitlin.
"Hey!" hissed Mrs Wang, grabbing her daughter's wrist, "You will not talk to me like that."
It seems like an extreme overreaction on the part of Mrs Wang to me... of course maybe you want to introduce that as one of her character traits, but then I would consider doing it more subtly.
Otherwise, nice idea; I just hope the deja vu effect does not become too overwhelming.
exswoo Assuming that you're not writing this to make a point about OT topics, English names that Asian American use as first names are usually whatever common names you see in the English language. So lots of Johns, Michaels, Peters and whatnot.
Tamsin: I've probably written about as much OT stuff as anybody could ever hope to get away with, so I'm trying hard to be more go-focussed these days. But if I give away the moral of this story now, then it won't be any fun reading the rest of it... assuming it is fun to read, that is.
If people would like to e-mail storyline suggestions or character ideas, I'd like to hear from you. Cheers!
Zarlan: I agree with mgoetze about the depth. You don't "see" anything beyond what you consentrate on, which wouldn't hurt to "see" a bit clearer and one thing happens and then suddenly another thing does. Also I agree with Scartol about the Chess/Go constrast. Not about the colorful verbs though. They add to the depth and I have never found them distracting.
I don't quite understand much, but I asume that is supposed to come later (as in mgoetze's nice moyo-territory analogy).
I look forward to reading more.
HolIgor: I hope Xena features in this one.
If you have not any other particular reason or if you have not a particular combination in mind, it is better to change Botvinnik combination to somebody's else (Alekhine, Tal, Fischer, Kasparov ). As Bonvinnik willingly admitted himself, he was not good at combinations (relatively, of course). His understanding of positional game was superb though. Quite often he won games at move 60 and was later shown how he could have won them at move 30.
Tamsin: Thanks for the comments. You may notice me refining bits of the story in light of your suggestions. Maybe much later on, HolIgor, Caitlin will enjoy watching "Xena: Warrior Princess" on TV, but I can't see any other way of working that in, LOL. I have changed "Botvinnik's combination" to "Bronstein's combination", though.
HolIgor: Put some diagrams. They are a strong point of "Master of Go" and "Hikaru no go". What was the position Mr. Pak solved wrongly?
Tamsin: My idea was that Mr Pak was explaining the concept of two eyes to Caitlin, and had set up some kind of Black to play and live problem. However, Caitlin had noticed that there was a way to capture some White stones, a possibility Mr Pak had not foreseen because he had set up the position in a sloppy fashion to begin with. I don't think this is too unlikely, since in some ways it might be easier for a beginner to understand a capturing race than it is to grasp the concept of two eyes. Even so, it was as impressive for Caitlin to notice the possibility as it was embarrassing for poor old Mr Pak, and that was what caught Huang Zi's attention.
HolIgor: Still I suggest putting the diagrams in the text. The diagrams was what made "Master of go" and "Hikaru no go" so attractive. You can look at them, read some varaitions, solve some problems. They make the story alive.
It seems unlikely that a 1D person would grab white stones against somebody older whom they don't know. The rituals and traditions of the game are learned fast. This is a mistake a beginner would do but not a player of intermediate level.
About the small knight enclosure. First of all this was not the first corner and this was not fuseki. In the middle of the game nobody pays much attention to what is an accepted form of shimari. The position on the board dictates the strategy. Not everybody plays a small knight shimari from hoshi these days. I certainly don't play it. I don't know the purpose of such a move. I could be interesting to know in what kind of positions it is applicable.
tps12: Your portrayal of Chinese people doesn't quite ring true. I wonder what you think the story gains by making many of the characters of Chinese heritage. The marginally more believable premise comes at the cost of a noticeably inauthentic portrayal. "Write what you know," to cop a cliche.
I also found some of the sexual imagery a little disturbing, and wonder whether how much of it was conscious on your part. Most glaring was the scene which began with Caitlin's reading a romance novel and an allusion to her transition through puberty. Then we're confronted with, "Caitlin turned pink...She grasped a stone and slapped it hard...Mr Yamada passed again, and again...He then began to play." "Yamada played loose, fluid moves...she blushed and hesitated, as she saw how strong his shape had become." "She was so pretty, so delicate...she opted on a tight small knight's enclosure from her star point."
To bring these two thoughts together, I thought I detected a shade of fetishism in the story so far. Sticking with a white, male protagonist would likely produce more authentic fiction while not risking making readers uncomfortable. Or you could take the opposite tack and enhance these elements, making a metacommentary on the Western fetishization of East Asian cultures. Or even ignore me entirely as an oversensitive crackpot. Best of luck, whatever path you take.
mgoetze: I'd say you have to already be a bit disturbed (for instance by having taken courses in English Lit Psychology, or other disturbing activities) to read such phrases as "sexual imagery". The thought certainly never crossed my mind...
amc: I absolutely do not agree that any of the text has any sexual imagery of any kind, or at least not "sensual" imagery, if I may make a differentiation. There are references to puberty, sure, but this *has* to be a part of the life of any Westerner around that age. Hikaru got away with not having any "growing up" pain because he was directed at a younger audience, and besides was younger himself. Not having ANY reference to this in a story about a teenage girl would ring false to the utmost degree. As for the go-as-sex allegories, come on. Shape, light play, etc are all standard Go terminology. Just because the player is female it starts having weird connotations? You mention a white male protagonist, but this is simply an attempt to raise your own comfort levels. There is nothing, following this rationale, preventing someone coming here after the author changed it and starting shouting about homosexual imagery in a Go novel. :) Also, the main character is Chinese I think because the story takes place in the 1950, and by then only an Asian cultural background would allow a young girl to know about, let alone play, Wei Qi.
I have problems with this story, so far, but nothing to do with innuendo. It simply seems, to me, a bit underdeveloped. The heroine, to me, looks even more implausible than Hikaru. She doesn't have Shusaku teaching her, yet she's advancing WAY faster than Hika. She is also a bit "flat". You seem to be running towards the story too fast, and not spending enough time looking at the characters. She resents Chinese culture, but there is nothing at all that establishes her love for American culture. No friends her age from the Chess club trying to dissuade her. Romance novels are a tool for her, not something she loves. What is it *exactly* that she prefers about Western culture? where did she learn it? What did her mother do to the people that taught it to her? You seem to be extending too far without a solid base. I like the shape of the extension, but without the base it's too flimsy and can be destroyed by one bad move.
Note, bad analogies aside, I like the story. I just think that the third chapter should in fact be the fifth, after inserting a couple more after the prologue to flesh out Caitlin in a non-Go related environment.
mgoetze: Yes, I certainly agree about the rushing-towards-the-story feeling. But see my framework analogy further above. ;)
Tamsin: Having been in Japan for the last 10 days, I have been unable to work on A Cautionary Tale. I was amazed by some of the discussion above about sexual innuendo. Of course, Caitlin is female and will grow into a woman, and I will try to give her some realistic romantic experiences. But I'm not very interested in writing a "go soft-porn"! I agree that she is probably developing as a go player too fast, but it's like turning a moyo into territory, as mgoetze rightly says. One starts with the barebones and fills them in later. A good thing about writing a story as a wiki page is that one call alter it continually and substantially in response to people's suggestions - as I have done so already, in fact (for example, Caitlin's encounter with a ghost has currently become an equally spooky encounter with a diviner).
Also, maybe I should slow down the pace in later edits, but I would like to point out that I would like to set the main part of the story in Caitlin's adult life, when she becomes "Ou Katorin", Japan's number one (female) player. There is a clue in the prologue: Nakamura (formerly called "Jimenshita") Satoru is presented with a digital watch on his first day of work - now, I'm no history buff, but I'm fairly sure they weren't around in the 1950s and early 1960s, even in Akihabara (Electric City in Tokyo).
Tamsin: 9 September 2003. Sorry that I have not written any more for several weeks. Some very bad things happened to me shortly after I got home from Japan. For starters, I got ill and much worse than that, my fiancee of four years left me. I'm starting to feel better now, so I guess I shall resume the tale soonish, although I think it's high time I got back to some musicological research.
In that game in which Yamada tried to force a handicap on Caitlin: why didn't Caitlin just say after Yamada's second pass, "I pass too. I win by 360 moku." ? --[[Juuitchan]]
Perhaps because she was interested in playing a game of go? -- Evand
See RefuseToTakeHandicap -- Karl Knechtel
mdh: If you get the opportunity you should take a look at The Queen's Gambit (Walter Tevis). A book about a orphan girl who is a Chess prodigy and begins a rapid rise to the top Female player in the chess world. It felt a bit thin after reading it, and I think it was how it glossed over large portions of real life except for large conflict points, brushes with alcholism, orphanage, foster parent divorce and death. My point is to remember to flesh out areas that don't affect Go directly but do reflect on the growth of your main character.
Tamsin: Yes, that's a really good point. A major theme for me will be Caitlin's struggle to find love. She is going to be cold and ruthless, and yet I want her to be vulnerable and yearning as well.
Fhayashi: Jimenshita is totally ridiculous as a Japanese last name. Do a google search and rip someone's name off.
Tamsin: Okay. Can you suggest anything better? Preferably not a famous go player's name. Thanks for pointing out this out. (But if I do ever come across a Japanese person by the name of Jimenshita, allow me to have a good larf at you.)
Karl Knechtel: Ridiculous in what sense? English surnames are full of examples which both do and do not mean anything interesting/logical/coherent.
Tamsin: "Jimenshita" means "beneath the walls". Perhaps that is not such a great choice, after all. I have renamed him "Nakamura Satoru".
Tamsin: 12 September 2003. Many updates today. I have shown a very different side to Huang Zi's character - but how can I extract myself from this situation? He is a central figure, but it will be difficult for me to bring him back to terms with Caitlin after events in the Dragon...
Naustin: I very much enjoyed reading the story. I agree with the suggestion above that perhaps a little more charachter development might be better particularly before she discovers go. I have to say though that I already feel a connection with the charachter and want to find out more. On the topic of the erotic element. I felt that passage had an erotic element too. I think this is in line with her age which is being discussed in a developmental way, and with her obsession with romance novels. In other words I feel that it is not out of place but might be toned down alittle bit. Not anything drastic. From your responses it seems that you did not intend this effect. Perhaps just revising that part conciously thinking of how it fits with these effects might be all the sanding it needs. I look forward to new chapters.
Niklaus: It seems strange to me that Marlene mixes up Mrs. Suzukis first- and surname. Since she is so obsessed with Chinese culture, where surnames are mentioned first too, she should probably know that. (What language are they speaking, by the way? English?)
Tamsin: Yes, you'e right. I'll need to alter this. I simply wanted to make Marlene embarrass herself in some way upon arrival, but perhaps the fact she is still a bit drunk is enough. They are meant to be talking in English. It's difficult to know how to represent Suzuki's English (and that of other non-anglophones). I don't want to make her read like a bad spoof of the way Japanese speak the language, but I do want it to be apparent that she is not fluent.
Tamsin: I've changed it so that Marlene mispronounces Suzuki's name. This is a more natural error on her part, since she does not know any Japanese.
mgoetze: I think your omniscient narrator is telling us way too much about what's going to happen much later in the story (things like He was naturally a slow player, and would one day be known as "the rock" for his massive body, glacial pace and ultra-solid style.) I mean, I wasn't expecting the very first insei she ever played against in the league to be one of the few to actually become a pro, you might as well save the surprise for later. ;) Same goes even moreso for the great rivalry: I think your introduction of Yamada was very sudden, you got to the point extremely quickly, and then you even sketch out the rest of the relationship within the same chapter. Personally, I would enjoy a subtler approach.
Tamsin: Fair comments. I do tend to write while at work and my intention is to go back over the story later and revise it, fleshing out details and so on.
Tamsin: In light of your comments, I have begun a reworking. Thanks, it all helps.