Kadoban/Discussion

Sub-page of Kadoban

The same situation for the player one game away from winning the series is called tennouzan.

Bob Myers: I don't believe this is the correct usage. Kadoban refers to the state of being one game away from defeat. Tennouzan refers to the game which might cause this state to come about for one of the players.

Velobici: Bob, you may very well be right. I am certainly not a Japanese expert. Your statement seems into indicate that there are only two definitions (the two below), rather than three, as the particular game is not called kadoban. That said, please note that both the Go Players Almanac and Invincible list kadoban in their glossaries as a game which if lost will end the match or lead to a change in handicap. Perhaps John F could help?

Bob Myers: I was not talking about the definition of kadoban on this page, which I think is fine. I was talking about the statement that "Tennouzan refers to the game which might cause this state to come about for one of the players", which as Bill also says below is a misinterpretation.

Velobici: As is read John F's comments at Tennouzan/Discussion, it seems that tennouzan can refer to a particular game (one definition), while the more common go definition is commanding position that must be seized lest your opponent gets there first. As I have said above, I am no Japanese expert, so please dont take this as arguing a position, rather I seek to understand the statements of others.

unkx80: "... it seems that tennouzan can refer to a particular game..." -- Yes, at least in Chinese.

Bill: Yes, tennouzan can refer to a particular game, but a game such as the fifth game of a five game match, when the players are two and two, not the third game when the score is two to nothing.

Bill: Doing some web search, as far as I can tell kadoban usually refers to the condition of needing to win, but it can also refer to the game or the player.

However, I don't think the part about tennouzan is correct. For example, if the score in a 7 game match is 3 and 0, the next game is kadoban, but not tennouzan. It is decisive only if the leader wins. If he loses, we're still in a kadoban situation. Also, while a web search yielded thousands of hits for both kadoban and tennouzan, I did not find a single case where both terms referred to the same game.

kokiri: from infoseek: (1)囲碁・将棋などの連続した対局で、勝負が決まる局番。七番勝負ならば三敗した次の一戦。 In go or shogi, the deciding match. In a seven game series, the game after getting your third loss.

Velobici: 5th game in a 2-2 tied 7 game match is tennouzan. 4th game in a 3-1 7 game match is kadoban for one player. if that player wins, the next game is still kadoban. every game will be kadoban till the match ends.

3rd game in a 1-1 tied 3 game match is kadoban. Is it also tennouzan. by analogy to the above statements regarding a 7 game match, it would seem that the answer is yes....the game is both kadoban and tennouzan for both players.


This is a copy of the living page "Kadoban/Discussion" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2005 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.
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