Why KGS Clans Have Bombed

    Keywords: Online Go

When KGSClans were first anounced I was excited.

As mentioned in [ext] http://senseis.xmp.net/?QuickQuestions#toc7. You need to "fill your tank" with patterns, joseki, tesuji and other aspects of go. You do this by playing serious games. The games must be played seriously by both opponents.

It has been noticed by several people that games played online are less serious then games played in a club (for example). The result is that you have to play many more games online to become shodan. So anything that helps make online games more serious is welcome.

It was my belief that clans would generate enthusiasm for the games, make the players get more serious about winning, and make the games online more serious. I believed that so much that while clans were being discussed, I began to form one. That was until I read some of the discussion and cuby's reply to DrStraw's objection.

Then it became clear to me that for some reason cuby felt clans would be a means for self aggrandizement, presumably to make up for whatever shortcomings are bothering him in real life. He could not do by himself, so he wanted to invent clans as a way of becoming a big winner. So that he could shout out his victories (or his clan's victories). From some of reprisal's I can see that he thinks the same way. To me it's clear that clans are not a means to improve the level of competition, it's more of a means for some kyu players to attract observers, and to give them a chance to drop their pants and pull out a ruler.

Cuby says he does not want to abide by a game which is a "rich tapestry of asian history". Rather he wants "a game he can make his own". Well I've got news Go is "rich tapestry of asian history". If he wants a game of his own, he should go out make it up, not try to hijack go servers.

All I can see clans doing is chasing away many of the high quality players players (the pros and the inseis). These players have no need to show off. They already know how good they are. At best they will be indifferent to clans, at worse they will come away with the feeling that KGS stands for "Kinder Go Server". Yes we do not have many players like this, but I would like to think that if some come in, they will feel comfortable staying. -- ThaddeusOlczyk

It however appears, that with some luck the clans have gotten off to a poor start. The planned gangbuster game has not taken place due to scheduling difficulties (strange those scheduling difficulties didn't seem to prevent other games between the two principles). Other incentives that were promised, I do not see materialising. I see the players in the weak clans getting bored their clans disbanded, and the idea dying.

reprisal: I hate to respond to a page that sounds so much like a personal rant, but the title is just too provocative for me, in the interests of the budding clan project, to ignore. I'd much prefer discussion and criticisms of the clan idea on KGS Clans discussion page instead of this very negatively-titled page, but once again, I can't just ignore this.

To begin with, KGS Clans have NOT bombed. In the month or so since I suggested the idea to cuby and we started promoting the idea on Sensei's Library and KGS, we've seen an overwhelmingly positive response with many people from all over the world interested in the idea. I hope the idea continues to grow until high quality clan games are common online.

Thad You don't have to shout. Most certainly the big rollout game was a bust. Instead of the expected minue vs dantoojie

(which would have been a very interesting game, if both had played it seriously) we got a game by TheCaptain. How many does he play a day? 10? That's really unique. I can't help but remember in a game just before Iwamoto, he said he has trouble playing serious games anymore.

Like you, I hope think one of the strongest points of clans is the ability to ensure that both players are strongly motivated to try their best and play hard.

I suspect they will be too busy trash talking to take any game seriously.

I came to go from a computer game culture, where clans are quite common.

Then perhaps you should of stayed there. In case you had not noticed Go is a board game, not a computer game.

This is just an intolerant remark. You have to accept that some people play go for fun sometimes.

Although I know some people associate games like Counterstrike with immature adolescent stupidity, there are also many adults who enjoy computer games today.

You mean the immature adolescent stupid ones?

Actually, as any serious computer gamer can tell you, almost all high level play in team games online is between clans, because public servers are often plagued with the immature adolescents.

Should give you a hint.

I'm hoping clans will have the same effect online: by raising the stakes slightly and including some positive peer pressure, we can strive for clan matches which are better for learning than random anonymous KGS matches.

Yeah but nothing beats that good old negative peer pressure exerted by your teammates and opponents. Like KarateKid. Yes. A good example of decorum.

Neither cuby or I are promoting clans as means to attract attention to ourselves.

So you say. Yet in pushing clans you go around attracting a lot of attention to yourself.

Are you so sure that this is intentional, rather than just a biproduct of reprisal's and cuby's promotion of clans -ProtoDeuteric

We aren't doing it because we're weak and want kibitzers.

Yet the few clan games I've seen have drawn kibitzers. Strange how that works out.

It's a sign that people are enjoying playing in the clan environment, and watching their friends' games.

I can't speak for other clans, but pH1 is largely a social group. We want to hang out with some of our online friends and enjoy our common interest, go, together. I find friendly competition highly enjoyable, and clans are designed exactly to promote that in ways that other groups simply can not.

Right like a freindly game that begins with the greeting [ext] ''Burn in Hell''.

Yes actually!! You can tell this is a friendly game because otherwise I wouldn't have said that. Obviously I tend not to use that sort of thing with people I'm not friends with because it's incredibly rude, I seem to remember it was typed in brackets after "enjoy the game" for comedic effect.

Drimgere: Java and I are pretty friendly and a jest like that is hardly material to support your weak theories

We've already had clan tsumego practices that are honestly much more fun because of the social elements. Solving tsumego alone is something that I'm sure would make me stronger, but it it's also something I'm too lazy to do often. In a clan, there's a bit of peer pressure to at least join in the demonstration and give the problems a shot, and I really enjoy that.

Aha, so you need clans because you lack the discipline to do tsumego on your own. What happened to all the small groups that

got together to do tsumego, like Mef's Tsumego Tuesdays?

As for competitions with other clans, I think the primary goal should always be to enjoy the game, not to lord the victory over your opponent.

That is certainly not the way cuby talks.

That being said, I like competing, and I like winning. I want to have occasionally have something more mark my victory than "thx" and a slight gain on my KGS rating.

Well I got news. In twenty years that's all you'll have even with clans. Like some pro giving advice to kyu's on his web site said "No one will remember how many games you lost as a six kyu, when you are 6 dan."

Is this a competition that I'll break down in tears and curse wildly if I lose? Or resort cheap tactics to win? Of course not! But I think there's nothing more satisfying than a hard fought game after a bit of trash talking and clan rivalry.

--"All I can see clans as they are structured now, doing is chasing away many of the high quality players players (the pros and the inseis)."

I absolutely disagree with you on this. As far as I know, of the very few pro and insei on KGS, none have shown any interest in clans one way or the other. If they aren't interested, there is no pressure for them to be involved in the slightest. I simply can not see how they would leave KGS because some players are having semi-organized matches periodically.

If a pro were to stop in and give a game to some new KGS player; a player who did not realise the trash talking he

saw was in a clan game and is told ''Burn in Hell'; then I'm pretty sure they won't be coming back. Of course, it's not like pros like Akira Ishida? or Cho Chikun ever log onto go servers and play. Wait, let me correct that. It's not like they ever log onto KGS. I wonder why?

ProtoDeuteric: Regardless of the reasons that such professional players have for never logging onto KGS, I heavily doubt that clans have anything to do with it. I have never seen Cho Chikun or other top 9p professionals on KGS in the year or more that I have either been a guest or member of KGS. Clans have only existed for a few weeks, so I must conclude that the claim that clan behavior has driven talent away from the KGS is unsupportable.

Of course, I'm trying to make clans sound as appealing as possible, but I don't want anyone to be unhappy with them. If you aren't intersted in them for any reason, by all means, just ignore them! Nobody is obligated to care about clans or pay any attention to clan matches.

I suggest a future in used car sales. By the way, have you asked either wms or Kiseido what they think of clans? After all, it is wms's system, and Kiseido is paying for it.

Tamsin: At first, the idea of clans seemed a bit silly to me. But then, it started to seem like fun. After all, it's a chance to get a bit of identity by belonging to a team, and to enjoy team competitions. For the life of me, I can't see how the existence of clans, teams, clubs, whatever-you-want-to-call-them should drive away players of any level in droves. The idea might yet die, but it's early days yet, and since new clans are often appearing, it looks like a good sign.

For my part, I decided my clan, Nishi No Hoshi, would not only have a nice name and fancy kanji, but would also stand for some values worth remembering (see the page for details). At its best, the clans concept could inspire a new spirit of teamship, sociability, friendly competition and innovation.

Thad: Sorry Tamsin. First "new clans are often appearing" is an extreme exageration. There are eight or nine clans. Several of which have been around for quite a while during prepreparations. I don't see them sprouting up all around.

As for the idea that clans stand for something, well where did you get that idea? Well before you (and after you), the only clan that stood for any kind of ideals was ... mine. I thought that was part of the original concept, but no other clan seems to agree. I guess you got that impression from me, but if you look around others don't agree.

The only ideals I seem to be getting from the organisers can be summed up by this quote from cuby:

"i'll tell you the truth, sometimes i am bothered by the weenie, emasculated attitude of many go players who urge me to play calmly, to learn from my mistakes and to study patiently. you know what? sometimes i want to scream and get drunk and root for my teammates, and erupt in jubilation when they win. they do it in other sports, and other games"

[ BTW the trend in football is to not erupt in jubilation. I constantly hear comentators (many ex-jocks) and coaches make the comment (Sorry I don't remember whether the original attribution is to Tom Landry or Chuck Noll.): "When you get to the end zone simply hand the football to the referee. Act like you've been there before." ]

the other ideal I get is reprisals reference to the games as "rumbles". Do you really think that these are "values worth remembering"?

Tamsin: Well, you're welcome to your views. I can't see anything wrong with rooting for your team-mates and cheering when they win, and commiserating when they don't. Screaming's a bit much, and whether you get drunk or not while watching (or playing) is your own affair, and being in a clan doesn't mean you can't study patiently or use the idea to form up a study group with fellow members. Make of things what you want.

Thad: Well from your revision notes I can see how serious you are. "Tiddle-dee-dee" and "la-la-la" show your lack of maturity. So you might fit in. On the other hand, I'm starting to suspect that you are one of those naive women who marries someone hoping to change him afterward. Only you are doing it with clans.

DangoMouse: I didn't read this whole page in detail because it was too boring and ranty. However, I don't feel the idea of clans has existed for sufficient time to be judged so harshly. Moreover there's no need to be so negative Mr. Olczyk, if you don't like the idea, just leave it be.

Tamsin: I'm a bit taken aback by your incivility, Thad. Anyway, as DangoMouse says, if something is not to your liking, then don't get involved. And now I'm off to watch my cartoons and try to persuade my boyfriend to take an interest in fashion...

Hicham?: Thad, get a grip man. I dont like this whole clan idea, but let people do what they want. If you changed your mind, no problem but starting a flamewar is not the way to make your point, especially if you start attacking people just because they have another opinion. Disagreeing is okay, but do it wih respect. (This may be removed when this page is cleaned up)

AndreasTeckentrup: In my opinion, clans are just another kind of online go club. Online go clubs are a good thing, and it doesnt really matter how one calls them. If some clan members show dubious behavior (I'm sure it's only a minority), the same happens in other online go clubs as well.

Thad By dubious behaviour do you mean things like trash talking which reprisal advocates on this very page?

Tamsin: Hi, Andreas! That's exactly my view, too. I like the idea of having online go clubs who can have match-ups with each other at any time, and indeed be involved in an ever-ongoing competition. I like also the idea of belonging to a group, and sharing ideas and teaching within that group. And I created Nishi No Hoshi because I wanted to be in a club that emphasised positive values like respect for other people and respect for the game itself. So, in my view, being in a clan can be, but does not have to be, belonging to a go club...with knobs on!!!

Jono: What are the Nihon Ki-in, Kansai Ki-in etc. other than clans of professionals? What about the story of the spitting blood match, where one 'clan' leader sent his student to play the representative of the other clan? I'm probably not going to join clans, nor am I particularly interested in them, but it seems to me that that sort of teaming up has done some good for the game before.

Thad I have no objection to forming some kinds of teams. That's why I was positive about clans in the first place. Tell me does the Nihin Ki-in allow it's players to yell Burn in Hell while playing? Sorry I am being redundant, but I really

don't want to keep track of all the instances of improper behaviour to do with clans. it would take too much of my time.

Celila: Ok, this has gone on for quite a while.. and it's getting ridiculous, olczyk ... I tell you exactly what happened:

Wow. Celila the psychic!

you heard about clans ... you were excited and happy....

Thad Wow. You make it sound like I was ... well lets just

say extremely elated. Actually I was just interested, I'm interested in any scheme that might promote team play.

you've seen my page about TSC ... you've also seen that I said that we are not looking for new members, but you never asked me if you can join ...

Bzzt, wrong. I looked at you clan page, said to myself "I guess he will be on her clan. Yep. Oh look, there is minue622

there too, maybe I might be interested. Let's start reading this from the beginning. What shobute? It means that? Well yeah that's cool, and as they say "fortune favors the bold", but to base a clan on that? No way! Not even with minue on the clan. Will miss you guy.

I suppose that if there was Mephistopheles ouse in the Sabaki

Go Club, I might be interested. Until I learned who Mephistopheles was. Then I would not be interested. The same thing happened here after I talked to DrStraw,

As for joining your clan, I would not have asked you. If I had known that you were not looking for members, I would have asked minue622 and he would have asked you. I'm pretty sure (of course this was way back in the days before I made my mind change known)that if he had asked to include me you would have. I don't think you would have risked upsetting him and have him go off and found his own clan. The facts seem to me on this, too. Until recently, besh?, a student of minue, was not on your member list. But you added him, despite the note you have that you are not looking for new members.

Why ask minue? Is that a cult of the rank thing?

you then started your own clan, and felt "rejected" (I still wonder why) and attacked my clan on your page...

Interesting theory. Lets see. I try to start a clan, feel rejected, then attack your clan on my clan page. OK. Fine... Wait a minute. The things I say about your clan now ( and in between) are the same things I said on the first version of my clan page. Oops. How can I "attack" you when I feel rejected, if the attack is the same words that I used before I felt rejected.

Strange. I felt rejected. Strange because I already had two members plus myself, which made the minimum. And meditation

went out of his way to say he was interested in my clan. Plus there is a certain midlevel dan who would be happy to join ''any clan but yours!". Since I think there were only two clans looking for members, one being mine, I'm sure I could have convinced him to join us. I also had a few kyus in mind but I hadn't asked them.

Then DrStraw declined. He explained his reasons. Then I took a better look at clans. I was already getting ambivalent. I then decide not to have anything to do with the clan,

You poor poor sensitive girl. I attacked you? All I said was that I did not think Shobute was a good concept around which

to base a team/clan/school/house/... . you have some funny concepts of what an attack is, as well as some very inflated views of yourself.

 after a while, when you *as I asume* couldn't find more members,

As I pointed out I was set, not only to get an actual clan, but to get a room on KGS.

you decided that the whole clan idea is nonsense and created this page.

Nope. I decided trash talking was nonsense, and I did that at least twenty years ago.

 and now, you attack people on a personal level and you insulted tamsin on this page, and I don't think this is ok. That you don't like clans is your opinion, but it's not OK what you are doing here. The only one who's (and I quote you) "showing a lack of maturity" is you.

Well having seen your lack of powers of deduction, I guess I can be happy with your (incorrect) deduction here.

and here the reasons:

Tsk. Tsk. So redundant. When did you make this post? Right after I reorganised my post and removed some redundancies.

Be glad I do not use your logic, otherwise I might conclude that you have a thing for redundancy.

  • you couldn't join my clan, so you attack my clan

As I pointed out, if I wanted to join your clan, all I had to do was ask minue. (BTW does he know clans involve trash talking? I would be suprised if he did, he objects to rude behaviour.)

  • your idea of a clan failed, so you attack clans in general

My clan was growing fairly well, up till the point I discovered that clans included trash talking.

  • and Tamsin in particular, probably because you like her ideas about a clan and are jealous that it's her clan and not yours ... and therefore you say that those same values are immature.

Strange since I have no idea what her ideas are. BTW I suggest you learn to read. I did not say her values were immature. I said her entries in the changelog were immature. Granted that it is possible to deduce that I thought her hope that clans would not be what the planners wanted them to be is immature (it is), but I never say so.

Quote clipped because it is already a couple of pages up. Really love those redundancies don't you.

and now tell me again, who's acting immature?

Well let's see. A person accuses someone of being jealous because they cannot be in a group when that someone does not want to be in that group. A person accuses someone of being jealous because they failed to create something that they actually did create. A person accues someone of being jealous because of values that someone did not know very well. Do you really need to ask?

Launchpad: Wow. What more can you say about this whole page then wow? A clan is merely a group of friends, or in my case an extension of a club. It promotes competitive rivalries and creates new friends. For instance, in the sabaki club we have "houses" that compete against each other. It's relatively the same thing, but we don't have 50 people squakin' over words - we play go instead. To rant on a blog is one thing, but this page shouldn't even exist. And furthermore, if you haven't grown in 11 months, then maybe you are doing something wrong. - Launchpad ^_^;;

DSimpson Yup, definately wow. I am going to have to agree with launchpad on this one ... seems like everyone is being a bit immature on this subject. Whatever happened to just playing Go?

uxs: You know, this page is proof that the KGSclans thing is actually doing quite well. No game with clans is complete without silly dramabombs and flamewars like this one. So break out the champagne, it's working !


I would like to expand this page to include one other questions.

Has Online Go Bombed?

A lot of people think that online Go is a lot of rubbish and that nobody plays it seriously. Isn't it ironic. All the criticisms of clans that Thad makes can be (and have been) levelled at online Go in general. There is nothing specific about clans. They can and are also levelled at the people who play Go in pubs. To me it is an example of temple thinking.

Hmm. So when you play online or at a pub, you shout things like "burn in hell" at the opponent, and you create web pages that tell everyone what a mean sob you are? Or maybe you need to learn some...logic?

Dont you ever joke with your friends during a game? I like to enjoy Go, if that offends you I'm sorry, but there it is. If BURN IN HELL isn't a joke in your social circle try that's a sordid ko, I know deshi who say that during a game. Not really sure what you mean with the webpages? Basically I don't think of Go as a holy shrine, I don't feel the need to treat every game in a super serious fashion. All those people on the internet playing time limits such as 1 3/25 and faster, they're evidence I'm not alone. All those people enjoying a drink or a bit of banter with the game, they're the same. If you think I'm into abusing the opponent during a game I'm afraid you're wrong, sorry. I'm into fun, that's why I play games and I find that quite logical.

cuby: Thad, seriously, let me spare you any further embarrassment. you don't know what you're talking about, and you should cut your losses and make some conciliatory gestures right about now. you've made some assumptions about clans that are not even remotely accurate. so far in clans there has been exactly zero mean-spirited talk, and zero whining. it has been just as supportive and gracious as it has been competitive and engaging. had you followed through with your clan, you would have found it entirely to your liking.

so what exactly is your purpose here olczyk? do you mean to prevent people from joining clans? if this is your intention, then i gently suggest that you be forthcoming and straightforward about it. that way, you will get your message across more clearly, and we will know exactly where you stand.


This is a copy of the living page "Why KGS Clans Have Bombed" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2005 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.
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