evpsych: What's the +/- on this? I was under the impression that a 10k nngs is about 17k igs or thereabouts. This table says 10k=10k. +/- 4 stones?
Alex Weldon: I don't believe the ranks given for Gup are accurate; Koreans tell me that nowadays, you go 1 through 7 dan after passing 1 Gup. Perhaps it's been adjusted to match the kyu system
Most online Korean Go servers rankings are inflated by as high as 10~5rankings. However if you play at a Korean club or academy the ranking with an instructor who gives out the rankings it is almost similiar as the table
(July 24 2003) Isn't an update of this list needed now that NNGS has raised rankings by 2 stones? (see help new-ratings on NNGS).
StormCrow: Persuant to the above comment and the bumps in the ranking graphs on NNGS, I've updated the table by increasing all the NNGS rankings by 2 stones.
Alex Weldon: I think either the rankings for KGS, or those for IGS, as given above, are wrong. I was 5k* IGS many months ago, then stopped playing and starting playing on KGS. I lost my first few games, and my rating actually ended up in the low double-digits. I was underrated for sure, and quickly improved back up, but progress has slowed down and I'm still only 6k on KGS (still slightly underrated, since I win about 70% of my games). Meanwhile, my actual skill has improved, so when I decided to try playing on IGS again today, I demolished all my 5k* opponents. So, although the table above shows that KGS ratings are inflated relative to IGS, I think one or the other server must have changed their system, because it seems to be the other way around in my experience.
On the other hand, it may just be a difference in style... maybe my style works better against IGS players. Who knows?
UrbanNilsson: According to the KGS club Tenuki at
http://www.abstractboardgames.com/kgs/add.php, the ranking difference between EGF and KGS is the other way around. They say that 20k KGS is equal to 15k in Sweden (and Swedish ranking is within a third of a stone of EGF's according to
http://www.european-go.org/rating/rgdrep.html)
HolIgor: This may be true about the double digit kyu range. Novices on the servers honestly start at 30k and then painfully climb up the ladders fighting with the similar players. Their rating usually lags behind their real strength. In real life promotions happen very fast depending on the results of the tournaments or when stronger players feel that they have to decrease the handicap in order to have a chance of winning. Yet at the level of single digit kyus and dans the table is in my opinion quite correct.
May I remind you that, AGA and EGF rankings are based on wins and losses. Korean, Japanese, and Chinese rankings are based on skills and concepts learned.
I am KGS 3k and German 1k and I know many other people where it is this way and not as shown in the table. -- benni
I am KGS 2k and AGA 1d, I also just played (apparently) a Korean 16 kyu (or Gup I'm not sure, he said kyu) who was clearly about two stones stronger... I was floored, are koreans THAT much stronger? ---AdHoc?
I believe that the table may have to be changed; recently DGS has been changed so it is impossible to go under 30 kyu. (Before, the minimum was 40 kyu.) Has this been adjusted? Or have I been asleep? ---DanielB
As far as I know, official EGF ratings start with 20k, not 28k. --gimpf
I'm 15k in kgs 18 in igs and 18 in dashen... is it possible?---me
KGS ranks have altered after a formula correction. Somebody should alter the table to reflect this. KGS 6k, EGF 4k
I know an AGA 1k and an AGA 2k who are KGS 6k
ilan: The new KGS ranks are really harsh. I believe that a 5p player on KGS is now only 4p.
Chris Hayashida: How did that happen? Pro ranks are outside of the rating system...
Velobici: ilan meant to say The new KGS ranks are really harsh. I believe that a 5p player on KGS is now only 4p. ;)
Velobici: I have attempted to update the KGS ratings based upon several people I know (AGA 3D - 10 k) and the information posted at http://westerngo.org/ladder/
Does anyone have a good idea about how Dash ranks fit in with the others listed?
Malweth: Perhaps Dashn and LittleGolem should be added? Yahoo perhaps should be removed from the list since ratings there are unstable. I'm not sure how these should be compared - especially since my AGA and KGS ranks are somewhat unstable.
ilan: I played exclusively on Dashn for 3 months and I can report that the ranks should be considered separately from the other servers. The reason is that the majority of players at all levels seem to be somewhat ignorant of opening principles and engage in unreasonable early fights. Therefore, if you know how to deal with this, you rank will increase almost without bound, but if you don't, your rank will be dropping fast. So, I optimized countering this strategy with a very solid style and I went from 8K to 1D in 3 months. Likewise, a KGS 1 dan told me that he is 5 dan on Dashn. Now, I'm starting to play at Cyberoro and the majority of players there do not play these unsound early attacks, so my slow opening is putting me at a disadvantage, and I'm having trouble keeping at 1K and I am now (very temporarily, I hope) 3K. So, Cyberoro must be about 2 or3 ranks stronger than Dashn, just because of the greater diversity of styles you must learn to deal with. According to minue622, a KGS 5 dan from Korea, the current rankings on KGS are fairly close to the ones on Cyberoro. The conclusion is that Dashn ranks should be about 2 or 3 ranks weaker than the current KGS ranks.
[102] (Sebastian:) If this is really true, what about the correspondences in between 4D and 7D European - to which Japanese ranks do they correspond? Would it be possible to extend the table so that professional ranks are included? I heard, on IGS there is quite an overlap, and I seem to remember that 1p=5d there.
Fwiffo: With the recent ranking system changes at KGS, this chart is no longer accurate. One barometer for comparison would be GNU Go based robots. Most were about 9k (close to 8k) before recent changes, now most are 11k. Allegedly GNU Go is about 12k on IGS. At the higher end fo the spectrum, most dans seem to have lost about a stone (e.g. TheCaptain dropped from 5d to 4d).
Malweth: It seems as though Velobici changed the KGS ranks recently. Are these ranks accurate?? If so, I really don't feel bad about my 7-8k ranking anymore! LOL - Time to play more rated games on IGS! (I still don't quite believe this - maybe I can test it out a bit).
Velobici: Yes. I did change the KGS ratings based upon those that I see in the Western Go ladder and both mine and my son's ratings. My son plays on both IGS and KGS so he is a comparison point for me to use. At his level, AGA 3D, KGS is harsher than IGS. At my level, KGS has become brutal in its ratings :) Please do test this out...either confirmation or refutation is greatly desireable. Oh! for a world-wide pro/am numeric rating system that would let me see that I can beat Yi Chang Ho with only 15^H^H25 stones :)
Stormer I'm a kgs 10kyu. It seems that ranks around mine ended up shifting to be about 2 stones stronger. I can't imagine this can account for the differences in rank shown here. Just the other day I was talking to an IGS 2k* who plays occasionally on KGS, he said that IGS ranks are still about 2 stronger than KGS. Of course he does not play enough on KGS to have a solid rating, so maybe take that with a grain of salt.
DrStraw I think these changes to KGS are totally wrong. As a long time AGA 5D I have very little trouble maintaining 4d on KGS if I play seriously (with occasional forays into the realm of 5D) and can easily maintain 3D on accounts I use for playing just for fun. In my opinion, at least at the dan level, KGS is less than 2 stones stronger than AGA. I would think it is comparable to IGS now, with IGS being a little stronger. I rarely play on IGS but the account I do have is 3D.
Velobici: Steve, could have improved? Your last AGA rated game was over 3 years ago. Your sigma of 0.36 will tend to pin your rating in place, coercing the rating of others to change in place of yours changing. This combined with standard AGA slaughter pairings may make your rating a significant underestimate. But please play lots of games on KGS and IGS and AGA tournaments and change the table to match! Or just change the table. ;)
Perhaps a look at tiers 5 and 6 of The Western Go Ladder
http://westerngo.org/ladder/ would shed some light on this.
DrStraw: I think the root of the problem is that AGA ratings are based on tournament games, where everyone is trying their best. My experience on KGS tells me that only players at 6d and above consistently play this style of game (there are a few expections) and that ranks of 5d and below are based on a mixture of fast games, fun games and serious games. This would tend to make the results less predictable. It would also have the effect of "strengthening" the KGS ratings because an AGA 4d would tend to be consistent relative to other AGA ranks players of comparable or lower rank, but would tend to lose more games to stronger players, thus forcing his KGS rank down. At lower levels this effect is probably even more pronounced as the majority of games played by kyu players could hardly be considered serious in the sense that AGA rated games are.
isshoni: i can only speak of KGS vs Japanese S/DDK: on KGS i 'm about 13-14k. According to table above, that would be around Jp 5k. In Japan, i don t have any official rating, but occasionnaly i go in salons and always get to play the 'sensei' of the place. They recurrently assess me between 3k and 1d, even though i must say that their judgment is based on very few games. The table would rate me 9-11k on KGS.
ilan: You can see my KGS rank graph here http://kgs.kiseido.com/en_US/graphPage.jsp?user=ilanpi
I have played very few games there since August, 2004, so there is a sense in which your actual KGS ranking, according to the pre September algorithm, can be computed by using the inverse map of the function defined by my post August KGS rank graph.
eng60340 is the statement kgs 12k == igs 7k accurate? the last time i went to igs (was a long long time ago) i had the impression that igs ranking were stricter. i.e. kgs 12k == igs 16k etc.
(Hicham): I am 3k EGF, 6k KGS. I know of EGS 1D that are 3k,2k on KGS, 6k EGS that are 9k KGS. All with stable ranks on KGS and in Belgium.
browncow: These KGS comparisons seem about right. I am around 2k AGA and 6k KGS. Just some more input.
Malweth: Well... Perhaps they are ok. I just beat an IGS 1d as white (W+T, but the game looks fairly even and it wasn't blitz). I was 7k on KGS most recently, but I haven't played KGS in a while (except for teaching games).
Stormer: I recently played some games on IGS to see where It would rank me. I'm a KGS 10k and ended up as a 6k on IGS. So this supports what is on the chart, at least at my strength.
Velobici: another tidbit regarding KGS ranks. Argentina's representative to the 26th World Amateur Go Championship plays on KGS as quaker. His rank on KGS is 3 dan as of June 2005, down from 5 dan in October 2004.
Malweth: The Interpolation of KGS Ranks based on BGA ranks (August 1st, 2005) fits for me: 3k AGA (7/21/05), 8k KGS.