Attack while dozens of points ahead
ggleblanc: The stronger players complain about the ContinueWhileDozensOfPointsBehind tactic as a time waster. I've been in that situation a few times with beginners and can see their point.
As a lower ranked player, I occasionally see a game where the stronger player attacks for the maximum point difference win, rather than letting a weakness or two pass. I'm not suggesting that the stronger player should deliberately lose; rather I'm saying that it would be more polite to stop playing and count the score when it's obvious that the stronger player is ahead,
DougRidgway They may not be toying with you -- perhaps they are just practicing the difficult art of winning a won game. It's not over until there are two passes or someone resigns.
jfc: is this an attempt at humor? If so, your act still needs a bit of work.
Harleqin: jfc, I am not sure whether You refer to the page or to Doug's comment, but I don't think this page is intended as humour. If you are ahead, you should strive to simplify the game by securing your positions and covering your weaknesses. Then you can safely bring home your victory. Just attacking like it doesn't matter who is ahead often gives the opponent a chance to stage an upset which obviously you don't want, especially having been ahead before. Knowing how it stands, and playing accordingly, is an important part of go strength. This is not even a question of politeness.
jfc: I was referring to ggleblanc's original comment. I think it is a troll (in which case it is working as we are responding) or an attempt at humor.
while following the proverb simplify when ahead can improve your winning percentage, there are other factors to consider.
In ggleblanc's scenario the players are of clearly different skill levels with the stronger player far in the lead. ggleblanc's suggestion that the stronger player should "stop playing and count the score" suggests a teaching game or, at the very least, a friendly game. In this case the stronger player continuing to attack when she already has a clear win may be a strategy to combat boredom until his opponent resigns.
Scryer: "Simplify while ahead" makes sense only in the context of a contest where the outcome is in doubt: it's a heuristic that helps you try to win a close game when you're ahead. In the case hypothesized, the player who's ahead will win; the only questions are when and by how much. What should happen is that the losing player will resign when the loss becomes obvious. The stronger player has several options available, including: (1) Kill another dragon and make the loss more obvious to the loser, in hopes of terminating a game whose aji has been keshied; (2) Fill dame and ignore losing invasions, hoping that this will encourage the loser to pass; (3) Amuse yourself by trying for a specific winning margin: 1/2 point, for example. It's going in the 'W' column anyway, and if you're as much better as you think you are, you may as well play with your food while you're waiting.
Tas: I dont really see why go has to be so much about either winning or losing. If the opponent made a mistake and lost a big group in one corner, getting hopelessly behind, why not continuing to play equally on the rest of the board? Why does the one point between loss and win matter, while the rest do not?
You migth not have time for another game, but time to find the outcome of another interesting fight, and practice some endgame, though it won't matter to the overall outcome.
Most of us play to play, not to win, rigth?
If I was the one behind, I would expect my opponent to continue to do his best attempt to play perfectly, making the win as large as possible; while I'd try to minimize that difference. But of course I'd ask first if he minds that i do not resign.
Dieter: I play to understand Go better. The purpose in the game itself is to win. If it doesn't matter who wins, then what's a good move? If there are no good moves, what's there to understand? I do not play just to fill the board.
I agree that maximizing/minimizing the win may be a good exercise, but then you must set these goals beforehand. Silent convention is that B+1 = B+100.
Tas: It does matter who wins. I just doesn't se why the rest shouldn't.
I guess what I am asking is why B+1 = B+100? Of course it's the easiest in tournaments, but many people do not play tournaments. The game is what the players make it, rigth?
Anyway, perfect play would be the same, regardless.
Bob McGuigan: Of course you can continue playing, trying to optimize every move. In my games, though, when one person loses a big group, say, it makes the rest of the board uninteresting. It is too easy to play in other parts of the board for the person winning the group.
An interesting related point, though, is what happens in handicap games. When one player loses a big group in an even game it gives the other player a huge lead in the game. When you receive 5 handicap stones you are starting out with a huge lead (60 points?). So continuing to play after losing a big group is simply accepting a big handicap from your opponent. Of course in a handicap game one player is a lot weaker than the other and the handicap is supposed to equalize the game. If two equal strength players are playing and one loses a big group he has accepted a big handicap from someone of about equal strength.
Malweth: I disagree that B+1 == B+100. Certainly there is no difference in result, but if all you care about is results go will be a very hard game for you. The difference lies mainly with White. In the case of B+1, White has played a good game and lost with small margin. In the case of B+100, White has continued to play a hopeless game, failed to understand resignation, and should be embarassed.
There is also a difference for Black - B+1 is a closely won game and was likely a good fight and equal match. B+100 is either a teaching game against a weak kyu student or a boring game for B. I'm of the opinion that, unless teaching weak kyu, a kyu player should be within 25 stones of winning. Anyone who's learned to count (weak to mid Dan players) should be within 15 stones of winning. Of course, one should only resign if there is no possible strategy for comeback :)
Dieter: Hmm. I didn't mean that the nature of games ending in +1 or +100 is the same. But there is no sense in taking pride in a 5 point loss. It happens you know, playing White in a high handicap game, playing your very best to squeeze the most out of it, count and recount and confidently win by five points and then the opponent says "Oh, five points, I did well against you!" I'm speechless when that happens. The reasoning behind such statements is very far from Go. You can also lose by resignation and still having done well, because you gave it a tough fight. There is no shame in that, on the contrary. There is shame in playing cowardly because you don't mind losing if it is only by a small margin.
Malweth: True... I guess since I don't play like that I didn't look at it that way. Relative strengths, however, always need to be examined separately. There's nothing wrong with the Black player in a handicap game being pleased with a close loss - especially if the handicap favored the white player. I remember a time when I would have been very pleased with a W+5 win versus my teacher with 9 stones. Now, when that handicap seems numerically appropriate, I don't feel the same way. With players of equal strength, a close loss usually indicates a good game. When the losing move is relatively small, a good game is indicated. A loss due to a misread in fighting is a bigger failure, IMHO.
Bill: Well, if the opponent keeps missing the opportunity to resign, maybe a strong attack will open his eyes, or maybe it will inject some interest into the game.
ilan: It is obvious to me that anyone the origin of the complaint comes from people who were losing by dozens of points and were still attacked by their opponent. In other words, it is a complaint by the loser against the winner, which is much worse etiquette than content of the complaint. Accept your losses graciously, and if you believe that someone has no need to attack in a clearly won position, ask yourself instead why his opponent is not resigning.
Malweth: I certainly have to agree that attacking all out is not a problem - it is a style of play. It's fine to defend territory when ahead - but if the player ahead does not need to defend the territory (because of a very great point advantage or already secure territories), attacking is the only option.
If it is a teaching game, it is certainly bad etiquitte to overwhelm your student.
EdwardHammerbeck: Maybe it is a personal style thing. I am frequently, ahem, in the losing end of the B+100 scenario. Often I want to finish rather than resign in order to practice endgame, close up groups for a sense of aesthetic completion, or to just keep playing an enjoyable, if doomed, game. But when W starts going for my jugular vein, that's when I resign and think a little less of the other person. I regard it as "kicking a guy when he's down." In the interest of full disclosure, in the rare occasions where I am in the winning end of a lopsided game, I do practice what I preach. I calmly close my groups and end the game. I have no sadistic need to utterly humiliate and destroy my opponent. Bad karma.
ilan: That is exactly what I was talking about. I suggest you read the book "The Hustler", by Walter Tevis. The subject is exactly how winning makes you the "bad guy" and losing the "good guy" and the various excuses people find for losing. Such psychological factors are intrinsic to pool playing, where self confidence is a key issue, but I think it also applies to Go.
EdwardHammerbeck: I see your point. One thing I failed to mention in my two cents above is that I normally, when I want to play despite being so far behind, will say to the other guy "hey, I realize I am over 100 points behind... would you mind if we played on? I'd like to finish (for whatever reason)." In that way, I, rightly in my opinion, defer to his/her superior play and give him/her the choice. And then the second part of that is that I respect the choice.
George Caplan I suggest those who fight on read Nakayama sensei's chapter on resigning in "Treasure Chest Enigma" There is no point in continueing if a game is lost. Endgame practice? Play when you are 100 pts behind is completly distorted - the only thing you will learn is how to play when the game is already over. As a player, who though weak, is often the strongest player in my club, my goal is to teach. My goal is not to play all night with someone who refuses to resign a 100 pt game. While this person is busy not resigning, I could be going over the game with him, or playing the next eager student. It is not sadism that leads me to go further ahead, it is proper play, and irritation.
Alex: Allow me to add my two cents to the rising chorus of voices saying it's fine, etiquette-wise, to attack viciously when ahead. I do think that playing safe is a better strategy for converting your lead into a win. Many is the game I've lost after getting ahead by 30, growing frustrated with an opponent who wouldn't resign, aggressively trying to kill yet another group in the hopes that he would then resign instead of forcing me to play through a tedious endgame, overstretching myself and, in the end, accidentally letting him bring a dead group back to life or kill one of mine. Not only is it very frustrating to lose this way, it's probably not a good strategy for teaching the person some manners - injecting further excitement into the game probably only encourages him. Next time I encounter such a person, I'll try to make the game as boring as possible for him. Bore-you-to-death as an antidote for Annoy-you-to-death.
ilan: To me, this is the best answer. If you think that a certain behaviour is wrong, then the right thing to do is find a way to take advantage of it over the board.
George Caplan Of course it is better to play simply when ahead. I was reacting to the post that tried to defend playing on when you are 100 pts behind - and thinking less of a player who still plays since you are still playing.
Here is what Nakayama says on the subject "On occasion, when playing a teaching game with someone for the first time, I've had the opponent carefully make a two -point gote hane plus connection even though he was losing by 100 points. After the game the player rationalizes it by saying: "I thought it would be rude to resign when you've been so kind as to play me". That implies that he plays differently with his friends, but if you watch you find him fighting a half-point ko when 100 points behind. He fills in all the dame, lays out the captured stones then exclaims "Well, what a surprise! I'm quite a bit ehind," He then pretends to resign. I don't recognize this as a genuine resignation.
Nakayama continues: "The most painful chore for a go teacher is playing with this kind of pupil. Another name for go is "shudan", meaning "talking with the hands". One may not utter a word, but each and every stone played relates the feelings of the players. If you translate "shudan" of a player who won't resign a 100-point loss into plain English, he's saying "You're such an imbecile that I can easily catch up 100 points" It's hard to imagine greater rudeness in a go player" The Art of Resigning, page 36 of Treasure Chest Enigma by Nakayama Noriyuki 6 dan pro.