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Is seki damezumari/discussion
Path: AllYouEverWantedToKnowAboutSekis · Prev: SekiUnambiguousDefinition/discussion · Next: GlobalSekiOngoingGame
Sub-page of IsSekiDamezumari
Seki discussion
In this diagram, a seki is created: Black cannot approach White at the circled intersection because there already is a shortage of liberties.
Rafael: Are there 2 simultaneous discussions going on here? It seems there is a "damezumari is not the same as shortage of liberties" controversy (which is surprising to me) intertwined. Anyway, I believe Bill is mistaken: there is damezumari in the seki. Only it's not usually mentioned. Usually we say, "if you play this way, it becomes a seki". You don't need to go as far as mentioning the damezumari because, hey, your audience knows what a seki is; you don't need to "read out" the position. But in a life-and-death introduction to beginners, it is advisable to read it out. Accordingly, damezumari can be mentioned in that context and, in fact, sometimes it is.
That's essentially what Charles said, I think. But I have to point it out, since you guys don't seem to understand each other. :-) Charles Ah, but I do now. The point is that damezumari has a restricted use: see Shortage of liberties / Discussion. Now I don't like using Japanese terms unless they are necessary. Here, to use damezumari is not necessary and also wrong. So I won't use it. What the discussion came down to is an understanding that I (presumably others, too) want to describe this kind of shortage of liberties. Bill says that damezumari doesn't translate to shortage of liberties. So, I'll keep away from damezumari, except for special cases such as double damezumari where it is accurately used. Zook: Why is seki not a problem ? If you want to kill a group, but you can't, because of shortage of liberties, you have a problem, don't you ? What's the difference with a tempting cut or capture of cutting stones, which aren't possible due to shortage of liberties ? I think that shortage of liberties has something to do with a desire. Something is tempting and looks possible at first sight, but turns out to be impossible at second. Therefor I also believe there is shortage of liberties for me in situations where there is none for a stronger player: (s)he shows no desire to cut/kill/connect or (s)he doesn't think it is possible even at first sight. Me: can't I cut ? She: ah, no, you are short of liberties (to do that). Me: so there is shortage of liberties. She: that depends on what you want to accomplish.
Charles I think that's true enough. But in a sense useless enough. If you have a good feel for how false eyes affect shape, you revise expectations up if your opponent has a false eye, down if you have a false eye in a fight. You learn to see what's coming. If fact if you don't, if it gets you unawares (as it did to me on Thursday evening), you're making an amateurish mistake. In fact I think it's not coherent to say the constraint only hits you when you are practically 'immobile'. So from my shape-oriented point of view, the terminology stemming from the Japanese here isn't very helpful. John F. It's possibly getting a bit repetitive, but, as Bill says, seki and damezumari don't go together. With damezumari there is a cause (damezumari) and effect (death/capture). It's quite easy to see where the confusion comes in. Someone says damezumari = shortage of liberties. Someone says both sides have a shortage of liberties in a seki. So someone else applies one of Bill's syllygisms and says there is damezumari in a seki. Easy enough to see how it happens. Hard to sort it out. But Charles's WME of the liberty issue is, pace Bill, a masterful example that puts us on the right road and also - I hope - shows others how editing should be done. Path: AllYouEverWantedToKnowAboutSekis · Prev: SekiUnambiguousDefinition/discussion · Next: GlobalSekiOngoingGame This is a copy of the living page "Is seki damezumari/discussion" at Sensei's Library. ![]() |