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Fischer and Bronstein time systems
Keywords: Go term
The Fischer time systemUsed for timing systems in which a player has time added after each moved played (presumably by an electronic clock).
Andrew Walkingshaw: Fischer Time, like Bronstein Time, is an alternative time system for chess designed to get games over with in a single session without having to resort to a sudden-death finish. To understand this, chess games, like two-day Go title matches, used to be adjourned after one playing session (of six hours); the time control was thus two hours for each player's first forty moves, and twenty moves in each subsequent hour (apart from the restriction on the first period, much like Canadian overtime.) However, computers have killed adjournments by being plain too strong. Thus, chess moved to a time control of 40 in 2 hours, then 20 in one hour, then half an hour to complete the game: but some players objected to this last, sudden-death period. Fischer time was suggested to counteract this. As Tamsin said, it works by each player starting with an initial allocation of time (say, 90 minutes) and receiving an increment (say, 30 seconds) *after* each move. The net result is that the players have the same amount of time (three hours total) for their first 60 moves, but will never get into the situation where a player has to, say, make twenty moves in five minutes: they will always have 30 seconds to make their next move. The Bronstein time systemBronstein rules state that increments don't stack: this has more of the flavour of traditional byo-yomi in Go. In the above example, my time would not be 1m20s after the move, but only 1 minute: an increment can never increase your total time beyond where it was at the start of your move. I think this would make an excellent rapid control for Go servers, incidentally: say 3 minutes main time with a Bronstein increment of 10s. I'd certainly prefer it to the Canadian-type "twenty-five moves in four minutes" settings - it would keep the pace of the game more even. The Difference between the Fischer and Bronstein time systems... is in the rules for the increment: Fischer time increments stack. For example, imagine I have one minute left: I move in 10s. Under Fischer rules, I now have 1m20s ; this is 50s plus my 30s increment after the move. Tamsin: I did ask the Blessed Admin Tweet whether IGS had any plans to introduce Fischer time. The answer was no. One can only hope that dashn and KGS will soon offer this excellent time system. William Shubert (KGS admin): I personally don't plan on implementing fischer time, because it doesn't seem well suited to go. In fischer time, you can move fast in the beginning to build up a time pool that you use late in the game. For Chess, this makes sense, because as the game goes on you get into less-well-known areas and need to think more. In Go, most strong players think the most in the early and early-mid games, and move faster and faster as the game progresses because the decisions become easier[1]. Fischer time does not work well for that style of time use, so I do not think it will lead to better games. PS - Just thought I should add, I've been proven wrong before on things like this, so if somebody demonstrates to me that fischer is indeed more fun than Byo-Yomi or Canadian, I may implement it later! But for now, it just does't look interesting enough. Tamsin: If you want people to play on KGS, you should give them what they want. I'd like the option of playing Fischer time, please, and I'm sure I've spoken with others of like mind. So, I'm adding it to the KGS Wish List if it's not there already. dnerra: To William Shubert: Let me try to explain why I think it is also very well suited for Go. You are probably thinking about the typical "1 min full time, rest byoyomi" game setup on Go servers. I agree this doesn't make so much sense with Fischer time. Instead, think of "30mins + 15 seconds per move" Fischer time replacing the "5*30 seconds" Japanese byoyomi for a typical 1.5-2 hour game on KGS. I think it's very typical for Go that you often have whole sequences that are automatic, and then you have to think a lot about one or two moves. With Fischer time, you can accumulate the time during the former periods (instead of either throwing away your time, or spending it on counting the game or whatever), and use it for the latter. And still you know that the game will be finished in a reasonable time frame. And you avoid the unreasonable rushes at the end of Canadian byoyomi periods. (I have often enough seen 10 moves in the last 12 seconds of a 25 moves/8 min period, causing mistakes even by highest level players.) So in summary: Fischer time allows you to spend your time on the interesting parts of the game, without forcing you to plan ahead your time usage (this is not s.th. I want to focus on during a Go game), without giving advantage to the player reaching byoyomi early, and while still guaranteeing that the game will be finished in a foreseeable time frame. FHayashi: A time limit system used in Chess, presumably invented or championed by controversial chess genius Bobby Fischer. Not commonly seen in Go. In Fischer Time, you start with a set amount of time, and you add more time for each move you make. Thus, you can build up your thinking time by playing moves quickly. A very reasonable time system, as you can never run out of time as long as you are playing reasonably briskly, i.e. you never get in the situation where you have to make an impossibly large number of moves in a limited time span. -- Fhayashi Hu: As dnerra points out, it is only in the Canadian system that one has to play an impossibly large number of moves in a limited time span, at board positions that should have nothing to do with the clock. In Byo-yomi play, there is a rhythm for each move, which encourages reasonable briskness. dnerra: Yes, but byo-yomi is a little too regular for my taste - there are far too many moves on which you don't want to spend 30 seconds of thought at all. Tamsin: You don't have to use all of the byo-yomi time on each move! If you like, you can move straightaway. The idea is that you get up to 30 secs or 1 minute or whatever on each move before that time is subtracted from your remaining byo yomi time. That said, I still think FischerTime would be good for go because it does allow the greatest flexibility in how you use your time. Come on Bill Shubert, give the people what they want! kaiou: The only Go server using Fischer time is the Dragon Go Server, but I have never tried it. uxs: I have. It's actually a mix between the Fischer and Bronstein systems: the increments do stack, but only up to a maximum. The maximum time you can have is your initial main time. There are other systems, but this one just feels right. I just bought an Excalibur Game Time II clock, and it offers a "delay" option, supposedly to support FIDE rules. Basically, an N second delay means that your time doesn't start running down until N seconds after your opponent presses his plunger. Is this Bronstein time? It's not referred to by that name... dalf: "Fischer" time is the time system implemented on (almost?) all chess servers. Initially, it started there as a way to counter the lag (this was when Internet backbones were like 1.5 Mbps), but now real client time is used, so it is used as a real feature. In real life, it is now also used in serious tournament chess to finish the game (which used be 2 byoyomi periods: for the first 40 moves, the following 20 moves, and then adjournement), now that chess computers may ruin the idea of game adjournements. It is still an excellent way to play fast/blitz/lightning games: with an increment of 1 to 5 seconds per move, there is no way to really build up a vast amount of time. That is unless your opponent is playing moves that don't worry you the least, in which case you are likely to play fast anyway to quickly finish the won game. In general that's why a player is not building up vast amounts off time he spent later: if the players are playing on equal terms (handicap etc...), both should be spending about the same amount of time on the moves - until the game is more or less decided. I think that time usage is similar in go as in chess: except for say, the 4 first moves in go, and 10 first moves in chess, the goal is to get an edge or to get back in the game, so all thinking power is needed to play cunning moves.
[1]: I disagree with that statement. Most amateur high dans (5D/6D) I know try to have plenty of time available until at least the early endgame. And this despite the Candian byoyomi (used exclusively in tournaments here) giving an advantage (in total time allowed) to the player reaching byoyomi earlier. It's true that many low-dan players spend a lot of time early on, because they think they won't lose many points in the endgame anyway. They are wrong. -- dnerra Neil: Perhaps he was referring to pro games? This is a copy of the living page "Fischer and Bronstein time systems" at Sensei's Library. ![]() |