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Black Sheep Rengo 2003
Path: CentralLine · Prev: YamabeHashimotoTengenGame · Next: MirrorGo Path: CommentedGames · Prev: VernalEquinoxRengo2003 · Next: PlayingAGameBackwards
Keywords: Ongoing game
(since 2003 is the year of the sheep in Japan, China, etc. :-) Make your move in the SL Black Sheep Rengo 2003!Make your play on main board and circle it (unmarking the previous play). Also, make your play on the numbered board, and leave a brief note identifying yourself and your play. Every 10 moves we have to start a new numbered board. For how it's done, see Ongoing Game. Enjoy!
Last move marked
As suggested by DJ black might choose a new move 191 on this Diagramm, as the ladder beginning with white a, black b, white c (last dagramm) is more than black can take. The fans need to see more !!!
Juuitchan: B191. Is this a wasted move?
HolIgor: W190.
HolIgor: W180.
dnerra: B173.
HolIgor: W170. Added two captured stones to the bowl cover. Difficult decision. The move is worth 2.5 points plus while the descent in the lower left corner is 4.5 points. Yet, that plus is too disturbing. It is difficult to evaluate As it involves very large ko. I'd like comments on this move. Did I chicken too much, did I agree to lose here? The game is lost for white anyway. The question is whether the white can manage to lose less than 10 points.
BlackSheepMove170LowerLeftEndgame dnerra: B169. That move has been waiting for a while. HolIgor: W168. The only move. unkx80: B167. Sacrificing an extra stone. HolIgor: W166. An obvious move for white. dnerra: B165. Hah, I can continue my plan! HolIgor: W164. unkx80: B163. Lets wrap up this game. HolIgor: W162. I make the second in the row too. dnerra: B161. Usualy apology for making two moves in a row...
dnerra: B159. Migeru: W158 unkx80: B157. DJ W156: I do not like White's shape here... Who knows if now it is worse! dnerra: B155
unkx80: B153. reteiD: W152, thanks unkx80 for keeping the game alive. unkx80: B151. Since nobody made any move since April 21, I shall make my move again. (In between, my final term examinations started on April 23 and ended on May 3.)
reteiD: W150 Looks like HolIgor needs a team mate. unkx80: B149. No explanation necessary. =) HolIgor: W148. White cannot win the ko. dnerra: B147 HolIgor: W146. The cut has to be protected. unkx80: B145. Going for sente again. HolIgor: W144.Defending the top Dieter: B143. HolIgor: W142. I feel that this is big. Andre Engels: B141. Seems forced.
Migeru: W140. This seems big. HolIgor: I planned to play (not immediately) a here. Then b and c would be two points to aim at. White has to keep in mind the possibility of a push at d. Now White would play nobi and osae after another push. But if Black starts with a W140 becomes exposed. Dieter: B139. HolIgor: W138. I think that this point is important. dnerra: B137. (Oh, if anyone wonders what I was thinking with B129 -- I don't know either...) HolIgor: W136. Before taking big decisions. unkx80: B135. Big points up for grabs. HolIgor: W134. White could have played at 'a' but I feel that there is little use to defend a territory open at the other side. So, playing thick here. dnerra: 133 Migeru: 132 Dieter: 131
HolIgor: Endgame moves evaluation. HolIgor: 130. Trying to put up a fight. B127 was excellent, making White's bad shape look even worse. It is possible that White's reply should have been at b. After White's 128 the bad-shape white wall is in danger. W128 was important of course, but White has to look for a possibility to play at b. It is safe and it is big. dnerra: B129. Migeru: W128. Time to plug up. unkx80: B127. Just something sente. =) HolIgor: W126 dnerra: B125. HolIgor: W124. Again this area seems to be profitable both for White and Black. Black can expand his corner here. 123, Dieter: Before White gets a chance to turn the tables. I thought White can at least force a semeai here.
HolIgor: This is rengo. Whoever wants continues to play. I don't resign yet. I want to play yose in which I'd know the values of the moves. And I want to try all aji on the right. This does not mean that a new game cannot be started. Charles Good luck! I've made a new rengo so we can have some opening discussion at the same time. Charles W122. DaveSigaty: B121.
HolIgor W120. I think that on the previous move White had to play descent. If the opponent cuts then push twice and capture one stone. Then the opponent has to capture 4 white stones and White has sente at least. After White 118 the area at the top is the largest ,as it is the area where both opponents may build a territory while in other areas one of the opponents has a view for territory while the other can only erase. I have to say harsh words about White 114 and White 116. Two moves while the opponent has the same effect with one only. It is very inefficient play, in my opinion. Charles I think the White side will have to find some big money to use in the transfer market before 2004: the teams aren't really even in strength. HolIgor: According to the RICOH Pair cup webpage the ladies were intimidated by the perspective to be paired with Ishida Yoshio because he sighs when his partner make a move that is not to his standard. Eventually he was paired with Umezawa Yukari-sensei, who reminded him that she plays best go when relaxed. I don't know if that helped but that advanced to the semis where lost to Inori Yoko - Cho Chikun pair. In the quarterfinals, though, they played with Kobayashi-Takemiya pair who had a very serious direction of play problems, Takemiya pulling up while Izumi trying to squeeze underneath. I want to say that we have to consider these rengo games as teaching and rather explain the mistakes than discourage weaker players to contribute. Charles is stronger than me by 4 stones and I am stronger than some other members of the team. So we have to teach and learn. No transfer market. I did not like W114 and especially 116 because sealing the opponent from this side was less than the loss at the top. Why? White's sphere of influence on the right side leaks a lot yet even after the W116 while at the top white could have take a solid grip on a good chunk of territory. And the worst thing was that White lost sente. Charles Nobody can hear you sigh in cyberspace. That's a good thing for rengo - I agree with my teammate about that. Unfortunately <sigh> he's also correct that White has been losing ground in this game. Up to about 25 moves ago we were doing really well; now I think White is losing by at least 20, since Black hardly needed much on the lower side. So, we might resign? There were many interesting points earlier. Perhaps White 56 had to enlarge the ko. White 58 is fascinating to me: three possible local threats, but all losing something. Strategically, the tenuki plays were very significant, and the use of influence instructive. (Mostly bad, to my taste - what happened to attacking play?) Anyway, how about a fresh Vernal Equinox Rengo 2003, starting just a little late, same starting teams? But we should get Black this time.
dnerra: B119. Charles: W118. HolIgor BSR 2003 W118 discussion. unkx80: B117. With hindsight it might be better for me to play B113 at d. But then I have been targeting this move all along. Charles BSR 2003 W112 discussion. Dansc: W116. I think this both closes the white territory and keeps 114 from being cut off. dnerra: B115. Yes, I am timid, but I wouldn't know what to do against W c. Maybe B113 should have been at d? DJ W114: I do not know whether this is good Shape or Thin, but I believe this area is pretty big, also considering the surrounding positions' Aji... unkx80: B113. Of course b is very big. But then, I think Black has to create some chances.
Migeru: W112. Taking a dive... Here's my reasoning. White needs to regain the initiative and a play at 3 has a miai value of 6. I think unkx80: B111. The endgame continues.
Charles W110. This could be going better for White.
unkx80: B109. No complaints about B105 and B107, but I also think that if Black plays 109 before 107 then White a will be way too big.
Migeru: dnerra: B107. I apologize in advance for this move, because it's not good Rengo spirit, spoiling Dieter's intent with B105. But this move just looks much larger to me, and most likely sente, too. A white move at a would pretty much have closed the white center territory here.
Dansc: W106. I guess that should be blocked. Dieter: B105. Let the endgame commence. HolIgor: W104. Very ugly move but I don't see much point in playing ko here. dnerra: B103. Whoa, quite a lot of things happened while I was offline for a week
Charles: W102. Always a price-tag. (This turned out to be risky, since unkx80: B101. No ponnuki, please.
Dansc: W100. Against the proverb, but I dare to do this because of the white stone below. Charles BSR 2003 W100 discussion. Dave: B99. Sort of proverb :-) HolIgor: W96. I believe this is the hottest area on the board at the moment. At the boundary between two spheres of influence.
Charles Invade or reduce is one type of decision, in the abstract. Here it's more complex, since this is a focal area and a reduction play ought also to be judged by the way that it builds up White's area. exswoo: B95. Blah, I haven't played Go ever since I came to Japan and this is the first thing I do :P Migeru: W94. A black play here would make an eye and force White to protect against a double atari. Charles No, not 'force'. White can give up one stone. BSR 2003 W94 discussion. DaveSigaty: B93. Fundamentals? Fundamentals!! We Black Sheepers are strictly slam-the-stone-down fighters. Nobody said anything about having to know the fundamentals :-) HolIgor: W92. Trying to stay true to the fundamentals. Kageyama discouraged ladders that cannot succeed, thus no more atari for the moment. Even if the placement does not succeed in living, one can hope for the elimination of aji at the top. Charles So glad someone else played this ... I wasn't sure I had the nerve. Migeru You people are way over my head here. When the dust settles I'll ask more questions about W92. dnerra Dunno' whether B91 works, but it's too late to back out now...
Migeru: White 90. Let's see how this turns out. I hope this is what Charles had in mind with W88. dnerra: Black 89. Charles White 88: Currently, maybe worse for White. DaveSigaty: B87 For better or worse... HolIgor: W86 White eats one stone and puts it in the bowl cover. We are playing by Japanese rules, aren't we? Recently I played on a real goban and my Chinese colleague did not hesitate to take stones from my bowl cover. I did not notice first, then was a little bit worried, but in the end we counted my black stones and territory. Unfortunately they did not add to 181 despite the fact that I started with four of them. Returning to the position, it seems that white will be forced to treat two stones as light. Is it possible that white played too thin? But on the other hand if black misread... unkx80: B85. I intended to cut anyway... think my reading should be correct, or? Migeru: White 84: I think this is the right followup. BSR2003 W84 discussion dnerra: Black 83: I hope that, for a change, I've figured out what my fellow black sheep are up to...
Charles White 82: Natural, so I'm keeping it going. unkx80: B81. Black is behind, and I think Black can fight this battle.
Charles White 80. No reason to follow suit. unkx80: B79. Play a honte move before figuring how to clear this mess. DJ W78: Is this move good shape? does it peep somewhere? Ah! What do I know? B77: dnerra W 76: HolIgor: Protecting against the cut. Charles OK, but what about c ...? DaveSigaty B75: It may well be better to play "b" as a forcing move first. Instead this move concentrates on the main issue of the cuts in the center.
DJ W74: Wow! Things are getting serious! Nobody says anything, I just perceive fighting spirits and killing gazes everywhere...
dnerra B73. Charles White 72. Black 71: DaveSigaty
White 70: Migeru This also looks mandatory. My first impulse was to cut, but I think that doesn't work. Cut discussion. Black 69: dnerra This hane looks mandatory. White 68: Charles Happy with this exchange. B 67: DaveSigaty: Let's just wander over and see whose aji is worse around here... W 66: HolIgor: Rengo should be switchy, shouldn't it? B 65: dnerra: Hane on the other side seems to fail, so we have to try this one. White 64: Charles Matthews White has sente, unexpectedly. Let's see if Black can defend as well as make bullying plays! B 63: exswoo: Necessary? W 62: HolIgor: White takes the ko and lives. B 61: Dieter: Giving in after increasing the ko may be a loss, but I felt that the exchange of 58 for 59 is a loss for White and any ko threats I could come up with where either too small, too small in number or too vague. Sorry if I have spoilt the fun of playing ko. Charles Matthews I assumed that Black had four or five good threats, starting with a. I agree about White 58 - I didn't like it, even though it was played by someone stronger than me. dnerra: I don't understand why you dislike White 58. Surely White has to play a local ko threat, and at least White 58 keeps the option of the follow-up at b open (leading to one of the variations discussed on BSR2003 B51 Discussion). White c, while it looks like better shape, actually destroys this possibility. Charles Matthews White 58 and then White b looks like a clear mistake in order of play. More on the discussion page. One major issue: should White play threats that decrease in size, or increase in size? I think in this case the latter is better.
Charles Matthews White 60. Retakes ko. unkx80: Black 59. It looks to me that this ko threat has to be answered. Lucky: White 58. White should play a local ko threat. unkx80: Black 57. Charles Matthews White 56. I thought this was automatic, but I guess I play it to keep things moving ahead. HolIgor: White could increase the value of the ko by playing a. Strong players are very reluctant to increase the value of ko. That is something that weaker players have to keep in mind. (Discussion.) HolIgor: Isn't it time for White to decide if she wants to increase the value of the ko even further? exswoo: B55. Well, a descent seems like as good a move as any. HolIgor: This is called increasing the value of the ko. It is a very dangerous thing. Let's see how it turns out. HolIgor: W54. I think that White has to break through I'd like to do it with ko. This is the point when the moves have to be precise. If Dave played a hamete with 51 then it will be instructive for the kyu players if the dans would explain what is happening and what move is the best. unkx80: BSR2003 B51 Discussion. Charles It is indeed a good example of the need to think about timing. unkx80: Black 53. Uh oh... I think 51 is a mistake.
Charles Matthews White 52. This. DaveSigaty: Black 51 Just for fun, let's see what White will do...
HolIgor: White 50. Surely, Black's moyo looks scary, but if White makes a reduction move on the right Black would probably extend on the left. Self-made rule: shoulder hit against the third line, a threat to go underneath against the fourth line. dnerra: Black 49. Charles Matthews White 48 really is a vital point for shape; White 46 is just for territory - I agree with HolIgor about that. This is in fact a classic case where hane at the head of two would wreck White's shape: if Black plays at 48 White loses both influence in the centre and points on the edge in the endgame. Since White is now strong to the left, this mattered more at 46 than taking territory. exswoo: Black 47. I was considering a instead but it seemed a bit risky in a side where White has so much influence. The left side also looked promising but I figured that the potential cut at b would minimize White's move in that area. It also leaves open the possibility of an additional extension on the right side later if White doesn't play there. Migeru: White 46. I think this is better than extending after Black 45.
unkx80: Black 45. For about five days nobody made a move, I'll just make one to keep the game going. Charles Matthews White 44. A chance to fight back. I think Black 41 should just extend. dnerra: Aha, now that you say this I have to agree. unkx80: Black 43, atari. I hope this isn't an overplay. =) HolIgor: W42. There is an option of sagari here too. It is difficult to choose. Feel free to criticize.
dnerra: B41.
Charles White 40. unkx80: Black 39.
DJ White 38: Ah, hum! Easy... Dave: B37. I'll play the obvious and leave it to someone else to think later. Migeru: W36 dnerra: B35. Charles Matthews White 34: I'll play again, to keep the game interesting. DaveSigaty: Black 33 Charles Matthews White 32. unkx80: Black 31.
DJ White 30: A rengo is a rengo is a rengo. dnerra: Black 29. Charles Matthews White 28. DaveSigaty: Black 27. After the exchange of 25 for 26, 27 aims at making it difficult for White to get enough out of the right side to balance Black's upper and lower corner. If White becomes strong in the upper right, I think that White 26 will begin to look like kikasare.
exswoo:I figured that the extra stones in the middle will make the move at b seem a bit slow...
I think corners are big. Why keep playing in a relatively strong area? Charles
dnerra: Black 25. Black has to be patient now. There will come opportunities to catch up.... Migeru: White 24: I hope it's OK for another double-digit kyu to join at this point. I am thinking it's time for tenuki. I was considering playing on one of the free 4-4 points, but I don't want to allow Black to play a shimari. unkx80: Black 23. The corner is alive but... exswoo Just to keep the game moving...I give you Black 21 and White 22. I think Black 23 is decided as well...I wonder if my overplay at Black 15 could turn out to be any useful?
I'm guessing something like this would result...and White will play somewhere afterwards to either protect the cut( somewhere around c?) or make a base...right? Then again, White has sente after the sequence up to Black 23 anyway. Eh, I'm sure someone else will come by and rip my reasoning apart :P
Charles White 20 (rather than a hanging connection) deviates from any known pattern or joseki, but clearly central influence in this game invalidates joseki anyway. It leaves a position in which Black's corner is alive. On the other hand it does more against the cutting stone. I think Dave's suggestion of the immediate cut is one good way to play. White might end up connecting solidly with White 8 now at b here so as to leave no forcing moves at all. Orthodox is the keima connection at d, but my feeling is that White might soon regret leaving the cut at b, for tactical reasons.
unkx80: If I am not wrong the joseki goes like this.
Charles White 20. Light play - perhaps. dnerra: Black 19. exswoo:I took a look at Black 15 again and I think it was an overplay after all. Oh well :) At least Black 17 and White 18 are decided now. I was tempted to play out B19 while at it but I figured I should leave it alone just in case someone wants to makes it very complicated :D
DaveSigaty: White 16. The obvious reply? :-) exswoo: Black 15:The obvious answer?
HolIgor: White 14. I have never played this. Let's try it. unkx80 Black 13: Oh well, let's continue. =) Lucky White 12: I have to agree, Black 11 is not very inspired, much too greedy. Black will gain at most 10 points in the corner - White will make a wall. The black stones in the middle are starting start to look a little like a weak group instead of thickness. Normally it is bad to invade under hoshi too soon, this game is no exception. Anyway, it is not yet finished.
exswoo Black 11:I get a feeling that I'm doing this too early, but the idea is that the stones near tengen will minimize the large wall that White will get on the outside...
exswoo: I'm just checking back a couple times a day and playing the next move :D HolIgor: Shitsurei shimashu. (I am going to be rude). I think that this point has to be discussed. Black has found the tightest point on the board to make territory. This cannot be the correct approach. The usual kakari in such cases sacrifices a stone for the benefit of the exit to the centre. Such greed is characteristic of kyu-level players. When for a period I played san-san regularly, I was amazed that in many cases my opponents insisted on getting territory under it. The next diagram shows how to achieve this.
I am IGS 1k only and my word has no authority to it. Would stronger players comment on the move in the game, please?
Arno, 1 dan: I have to agree with HolIgor. Black 11 is a bad move. Black has built up some influence in the center, so he should use it wisely. Exswoo is right that if White builds a wall (naturally after the 3-3 invasion) it will cancel out with Black's influence. But the point is that Black is also losing his influence which is much worse than White losing hers. The only points worth playing are either approach moves to the corner (kakari) - I'd prefer the two-point kakari on the fourth line - or ignore the part for the time being and occupy the lower left corner. The lower left corner is a very good point for Black: if White approaches, Black plays a high pincer and uses his center influence naturally. If she doesn't approach, then Black approaches the upper white corner, again putting his center influence to optimal use. Black 11 destroys the "spirit" of the game so far. exswoo: Ah, I see what you're saying. I didn't think of the move as in terms of Black losing influence as well, just that the end result for White won't be very good. Should White play out the local sequence here or tenuki for now? unkx80: I agree with Arno and HolIgor. Firstly, the timing is wrong as there are still open corners and other big points like the sides. Secondly, the point to approach the upper left corner is wrong, it should not be san-san. I believe a better way for Black to approach the upper left corner is a.
Lucky:
exswoo:
Skelley
dnerra:
Lucky:
unkx80:
exswoo:White is going to play very aggressively. Charles I have problems with
dnerra:
AvatarDJFlux
DaveSigaty: Path: CentralLine · Prev: YamabeHashimotoTengenGame · Next: MirrorGo Path: CommentedGames · Prev: VernalEquinoxRengo2003 · Next: PlayingAGameBackwards This is a copy of the living page "Black Sheep Rengo 2003" at Sensei's Library. ![]() |