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Playing a game backward
Path: CommentedGames   · Prev: BlackSheepRengo2003   · Next: OngoingGame1
  Difficulty: Beginner   Keywords: EndGame

Important notice: if you're a beginner reading this page and don't understand something, ask please. Just edit the page. You will be answered.

I have a strange idea. Maybe that comes under the influence of the movie Memento. It is rather an interesting story about a guy who had a peculiar condition. After an accident he could not convert short term memory into long term memory, so he forgot everything in about 10 minutes, though he remembered well everything before the accident. The movie is shown backwards in time, so the spectator does not remember what happened before too just as the main character.

The idea is intended for genuine beginners. I know that quite often beginners have no idea what to do with the next move. Partly, this is because they have no idea about the long term consequences of their moves while they understand that there are some. I propose to show them a game from the end.

First, we start from the final position and explain why there is no value to the moves, explain that putting a stone in opponent's territory forcing a reply has zero value and is considered bad manners, while putting a dead stone is a loss of a point. We explain also what groups on the board are dead and then remove them, and score the game. The next step would be to rewind it ten moves back when there are some values to the moves yet and show how the late yose is played, i.e. how the opponents territory is reduced by making threats. Sente and gote come naturally.

Then rewind it back ten moves more and continue rewinding it until we come to a fight. We can show importance of the stones positioned earlier and analyse the fight. Slowly we will end up in the fuseki.

I have a game that is suitable. It was a fast game on IGS and it is full of stupid mistakes at all stages, so there could be a lot of comments and problems. There are dead groups in the final position (but no seki), there was a ko-fight in the middle of the game, the score is close, there is a lot of life and death, so it is fun. However, as almost always in my games, it was my opponent who made most of the mistakes in the chuban and my fuseki was just awful, so White was behind all the time but managed to win by 0.5 point.

I want some feedback on the idea. What would the senseis say? Is it worthwhile? I understand that the feedback from the genuine beginners is impossible for obvious reasons. But could that kind of read be interesting for them?

[Diagram]
Final position

Komi is 5.5.

White captured 10 black stones.

Black captured 8 white stones.

Result: White won by 0.5 points.



First, we have to read the position correctly and determine which stones on the board are dead. Usually the players have to agree on each of the groups. Usually this proceeds smoothly, disputes are rare. The next diagram shows dead stones, as BC and WC. In the real-life game they are removed from the board and added to the prisoners.

[Diagram]
Dead stones are marked


If you'd like the scoring procedure explained go to PGB Scoring.

If you know how to score the game, skip to PGB Why There Is No Useful Move Left. This page takes you one step backward to the point when both opponents passed. This is very important moment of the game. The game should be finished before scoring.


Index


I've been following this game played backwards, and I don't really see the interest (however interesting your idea may be). In particular I would rather try to give meaning to "take away the last move" rather than take away the last ten and then play them back in forward mode as you're doing now. --DieterVerhofstadt

HolIgor: The idea was like to show the game chunk by chunk. First, what the final position is, and why it is final; then the position in which several useful moves were left, then the rest of the yose, middle game and fuseki at last.

It does not work move by move because there is no interest in guessing what the last move was. And I mean it for the beginners and not for you. I suspected the yose will take a little bit too long, it is always long. But at the same time if I mean it for the beginners I have to show some tricks and possible mistakes in the endgame. There are a lot of mistakes in the game itself. I've chosen a very poor game to be able to show better moves in many places.

Never mind, if it does not work then let it be.

--DieterVerhofstadt Oh, no, please continue. [1]

HolIgor: I did not mean that I wanted to stop. I rather meant that if it is not useful that it does no harm :)

I think this is a great idea, HolIgor! :-) One request: could you make the game record SGF file available on this page? Thanks. --BillSpight

I like this idea. As someone who is very new to go, it is difficult for me to see what the real objective and how to wind things down. Starting backwards shows that. The moves at the beginning don't make any sense until you understand where it is you are trying to get to. Thanks for your efforts, --XScott

kokiri I'm interested in comparing where the territory is at the end of the game with what shapes and extensions the two players make through the game. I think that this sort of backwards approach might give an insight into which parts of the board really are big and which ones look big early on, but actually aren't.


[1] Dieter new comment on Jan 2004: actually, this is a fantastic didactic device. I am replaying a game of mine backward to understand yose. I do stop at each move and consider the alternatives, which are very few at the endgame stage. I notice the following immediate benefits:

  1. The reading one should do at the late stages, is done repetitively.
  2. The same alternatives always come back (but one is added every move).
  3. You get a better idea of what sente means.
  4. You get a better idea of what ko-threats mean, and then some.
  5. You get to feel the difference between and the value of leaving one ko, leaving two kos, ..., and for whom the kos are left to take.
  6. At a certain point, the exercise becomes too difficult or tedious to determine the outcome. The challenge would be to push back that point, I guess.

Naustin- I also have tried playing a game (a pro game) backwards to get a better understanding of the endgame. I had a problem doing that though. It is difficult to decide whether to comment on a move when it is on the board or after you've scrolled back one more. It seems if the move is on the board it is difficult to tell which move it is whereas if you wait till after you scroll then it obvious where the move was but now you are commenting on it after the fact (or rather before the fact). Of course you can scroll back two and then forward one but still then if you try to start at the beginning (or end) and try to read comments it is again very confusing. Particularly ko situations seemed alot more confusing to think about.



Path: CommentedGames   · Prev: BlackSheepRengo2003   · Next: OngoingGame1
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(OC) 2004 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.