[Welcome to Sensei's Library!]

StartingPoints
ReferenceSection
About


Homepages
GoStone
K5GS

 

Go Forum Project
   

Highlights

Some highlights from the discussion below:

(Contributors: [email] jet/jettero, GoStone, bojo, tps12?, DU?, Arno, mAsterdam, Deebster, Charles, fredb?, Confused

There was a [ext] proposal to make some K5GS message [ext] forums (or perhaps even a [ext] scoop site). A central, logical, discussion arena: core location for a K5GSSLGO discussion, stories explaining games, tesuji, joseki, tournaments, and blogging. If done well it could become an alternative to rec.games go.

GoStone started Shudan at the SourceForge and Jettero put up a [ext] site called TUGS (the unnamed go site) that he really likes.

Suggested names

  • Go-forum
  • HandTalk (already been used for a Chinese Go AI program)
  • Talking hand(s)
  • Pointstone Intersection
  • Intersection intercourse
  • The intersection
  • Shudan
  • Moku/Countermoku
  • Tsugi
  • Cross-cut
  • kaketsugi, the hanging connection ... You know, connect, hang out ...
  • Sensei's Lounge

Wishes

  • Close ties with SL
  • threaded discussion
  • moderated discussion
  • SL Go board style and SGFs
  • No images.
  • One registration for both SL and forum.
  • Same page formatting engine that SL uses.
  • seamlessly leverage the synergy of the consumer-facing propositions to deliver value-added scaling advantages. No, really.
  • applet that lets you play through games on gobase.org.
  • single-sign-on solution for several sites (GTL, SL, and others like goproblems, or maybe even gobase, KGS, ...)
  • logins not linked
  • Perl
  • scoop / mwf
  • synergy with Jan van der Steen
  • no CVS
  • SourceForge to thrash out the design issues (started)
  • customized html
  • generate chess diagrams

Discussion

There was a [ext] proposal to make some K5GS message [ext] forums (or perhaps even a [ext] scoop site). Is anyone actually interested in that? I will happilly set it up if there is. There's also some mention of [ext] graphs and statistics. I'm sure I could come up with something for that too. -[email] jet

GoStone: That would be ideal. The traffic might not be limited to K5ers, but so much the better. If done well it could become an alternative to rec.games go! If you're feeling 'codey' you could try putting in some nice board-display features like this site has. Worth asking K5 if anyone wants to help.

bojo: Scooped up Go oriented site with Go board tools, that would be interesting indeed. Stories explaining games, tesuji, joseki, personal experiences, tournaments, and diaries of Go players. Think it would work out?

tps12: Scoop already allows uploading of inline images. It might be possible to hack that to permit uploading of sgf files that can then linked to (or included inline with <object> tags, if any clients support that).

DU, who is a luddite: I don't want to upload images. I want to edit text just like SL lets you do and have it generate an image for me.

bojo: GoStone and I were talking about this idea in our game-emails, and decided that this should be the core location for a K5GSSLGO discussion. I think using the SL Go board style is the way to go, but uploading SGFs would be very cool too. Images are kind of meh, and have potential for abuse in an open community.

DU: The images I'm talking about are the SL-style ones. If you edit a board in text, SL automatically converts that to an image. If we weren't going to stick around on SL, I think that functionality would have to be added to Scoop. Oh and I just noticed that SL has an option to "Generate Diagram From SGF".

GoStone Thanks to bojo for creating this page (and fixing the title?). As for the right place for the scoop discussion, I merely wanted the discussion to be more open than the email exchange we were having. I don't care if it happens on K5 or SL. But I do think the idea is so good that something should come out of it.

I think ideally the SL guys should be involved.

  • One registration for both SL and forum.
  • The forum could use the same page formatting engine that SL uses.
  • SL have a server/domain/bandwidth/readership blah blah.
  • In other words we could seamlessly leverage the synergy of the consumer-facing propositions to deliver value-added scaling advantages. No, really.

Basically I see Scoop as offering SL a neat, cheap way to add a proper discussion forum to this already wonderful site.

Another nice feature I would like on SL is the little java applet that lets you play through games on gobase.org. So you could save an .sgf to the wiki/forum and play through it in your browser. All it needs is a little bit of code :-)

Oh, and I see you guys haven't got SL home pages yet! *titter* *smirk*

Arno: I can donate the server/bandwidth/source for SL/etc. I am also thinking about a single-sign-on solution for several sites (GTL, SL, and others like goproblems, or maybe even gobase, KGS, ...) However, someone proficient in Perl would need to run the Scoop site, as I don't have enough free time on my hands to handle this all by my own. I don't know if a scoop go site will be successful, but that's another story.

GoStone That's a wonderful offer Arno, thanks. As you say we (K5GS) would need to get some Perl programmers together etc. We'll see if anything happens or if it's just another nice idea. I'm a Perl rookie myself, written a few scripts but not much, but willing to get involved.

mAsterdam What is the next step?

bojo: I think configuring a Scoop site would be the first step. In itself, it has great functionality that it could offer. The login thing might be something to be thought of first (do we want integrated SL/Scoop, or is seperate logins fine?), and adding in SGF/SL-Board code later. I'm pretty much a perl rookie myself, and haven't touched the language in a couple years, although I wouldn't mind trying to figure out how to do this.

jettero: I would have no problem hacking on scoop to do what we need and I can also host it on my servers np. I absolutely do not think we should link logins together in anyway whatsoever... Gostone would automatically have trouble (kgs != k5, etc). I personally don't feel like making an account here....

Anyway, if we decide to go the scoop way, I'll definitely start work on it soon. I've set up 3 scoop sites before, so I have the experience to do it relatively quickly. Though, my bakharian site will not work well together with the new k5gs site (different scoop versions won't play nice in the same mod_perl pond).

Also, I'm reasonably familiar with the sgf format and like the idea of uploading/browsing them on the site. Before I'd do that kg5ssite::natively, I would definitely contact Jan van der Steen (whom I've spoken with before) about any synergies we might have.

DU?: Not to be the voice of cold water, but before we decide who has bandwidth or what our SourceForge project logo should be, there are other tasks that need to happen. For instance, just what would a Scoop/SL site look like? A wiki with threaded comments? A submission queue? Diaries? Two separate but linked sites? Does that mean that SL would have to be duplicated? Or would the Scoop site just be a sister of the real SL? Or would the SL half of this proposed site just have K5GS wiki stuff?

jettero: Well, I was thinking of something quite simple actually. Scoop may be less than ideal. Check out [ext] my stock monkey forums, or perhaps [ext] the monkeybox (which uses the same stuff). The story/post paradigm may be less appropriate for the kind of discussion site we have in mind. In any case, some sort of goban diagram interface would be introduced. I'm actually thinking of an sgf parser, so you could simply upload a library of sgf's and then just put a (board1,move132,lr-side) type directive in your post...

On the whole, I agree with DU. Before we set up a site, we need to decide what it is we actually want. Perhaps we should start a K5GS Discussion Site RFC... This weekend I was going to come up with some demo .html pages to show what I had in mind...

GoStone I think it is certainly worth creating a SourceForge project as the first step. We can then use all the facilities they provide (mailing lists, discussion forums etc.) to thrash out the design issues. I would prefer this to be a collaborative effort because that gives us the best chance of achieving something of quality that serves the Go community. My preference is for close ties with SL because the two projects overlap in so many ways, but I'm open to discussion. I'm sure there are lots of other people who could provide useful contributions if the project were founded properly.

I'm a little way through the SF project registration process. Many fields can be changed later, but we need a permanent unix name. 'Go-forum'? Too prosaic? What are those japanese go discussion groups called that Hikaru goes to?

jettero: That SourceForge idea is fine I suppose, but for the record, I won't use SourceForge. I think it's neat, I'm glad they're there, but I HATE IT with a PASSION. :) So, if it ends up on SourceForge, I probably won't work on it. I'm also against tying it to SL. Some handy SL linking features perhaps, but I'm really thinking of a simple discussion site. It's definitely a one man project.

I could be talked into tying it to SL though. What do the SL maintainers think of that idea?

DU?: I sense a disturbance in the force. I think the problem is that nobody has a clear vision (or we don't all have the same clear vision) of what "it" is? That's what my comment above was trying to say. Is "it" a discussion site that basically just puts the K5GS chat room on a webpage? Is "it" a Go community discussion resource, coincidentally begun and run by some people from Kuro5hin? I think the latter is more interesting and thus agree with GoStone that it should have ties to SL, though how bidirectional those ties are remains to be seen.

I have no particular love of or hate for SourceForge. I don't think Hikaru called those lesson things anything in particular. What about "HandTalk"?

Deebster: HandTalk? Are you aware that the name's already been used for a Chinese Go AI program?

tps12?: 1. We (or you guys) talk a lot. 2. I hate all of you and am forking the project and porting it to Qt.

DU?: I wasn't aware that it was a Chinese Go AI program, but I'm not all broken up about it now that I am aware. It's very nearly an ideal name (since a typed discussion is also a "hand talk") and I'm pretty sure China is a long way away and unlikely to fire missles over this issue. Then again, if a lot of people associate that name with that program, there could be a problem. On the third hand, "handtalk" is surely as much of a common noun as "chess" is--we can use it if we want. Nyah.

Editing "static" wiki pages has to be the Worst Way EVAR of holding a discussion. I'm installed K5GSDE as I write this, so I'll be able to use tps12's Qt port.

bojo: (bah you stomped my edit DU, I guess one problem with wiki discussion). Haha tps12, nice. As far as vision goes, I've thought about this in the past and thought that the Scoop framework would provide some interesting features, especially for threaded/moderated discussion.

The interesting thing about a wiki (SL) is the fact that it can be edited after the fact, and new pages can be created on the fly. This definitely lends itself to documenting all that is Go.

A Scoop discussion site however, gives players the ability to blog, or write stories, and if Go parsing code was implemented the ability to work out stuff in a threaded manner, along with the discussion involved. Also, the SL wiki "blogs" people have made up are kind of hokey compared to what I am familiar with, and I am less inclined to track down peoples SL blogs as opposed to loading up a Scoop diary section.

In the end, I believe that the project we are discussing complements SL, not detracts from it, nor shifts it's main focus. It gives the community, and potentially other Go communities the ability to have a central, logical, discussion arena.

GoStone Instead of using the SL page-formatting rules, why not create some custom html tags. Then you could also generate chess diagrams etc. Become a general games discussion site.

Yeah I know its just talk. But when (if) the SourceForge project gets accepted it could start to become real. Still looking for a name. Handtalk is out, brilliant suggestion though it is. I quote SF:

It is important to take care when selecting a name for your project. You should select a name which is not a registered trademark of another party, and which is not already being used by some other software development project.

Charles Something distinctive, like Pointstone Intersection? Yes, yes, I know. But Sensei's Library was just a working title, and stuck.

fredb? How about Shudan?

DU?, who never gives up on any dumb idea: How about "Talking Hand(s)"? Another good one is "Intersection Intercourse". "Moku/Countermoku"?

Charles Simply The Intersection. It's an old idea of mine, actually.

GoStone Tsugi means connection which sounds vaguely apt. Cross-cut? I like 'The Intersection' a lot. Shudan is good, but it's a term in martial arts too, I think. The more I think about it the better 'The Intersection' sounds.

Confused: On the other hand, Intersection is also term very common in the matial arts form of Driving cars.

jettero: for a name, I like kaketsugi, the hanging connection ... You know, connect, hang out ...

GoStone I have submitted a project registration request to SourceForge using the name Shudan. I notice there is already more than one web-site called 'The Intersection'.

SourceForge will now review the application and give me an answer in two working days. Watch this space.

If they accept it, SourceForge will give us mailing list, discussion forum, and a project website (not to be confused with the website we are aiming to generate), as well as many other services. We can then start holding proper discussions on what we are aiming for and how it is to be done, and also publicise the idea better to get more involvement.

An alternative approach is to create the site now using basic Scoop and use that as project web-site/ discussion forum. Start cutting code and upgrading the site as we go.

We would want the latest version of Scoop, I would guess. I've been having trouble unzipping it. I'll try again later.

jettero: I put up a [ext] site that has everything that I was hoping for. It is very unpolished... I slapped it together to just show people what I had in mind. Though, it is totally usable. I may set up a scoop site too, for comparison, but I think scoop (where news gets old and dispears into older, older, older oblivion) is not quite the right format for a discussion site. Mwf, auto-resurrects discussions that someone comments on.

Of, there were an annoying flame war (something gostone pointed out), it could be branched to the Flames section on an admin's whim...

At any rate, my demo site may be a better place to discuss it than wikki web edit chat. :) Oh, and one last thing, I'm trying to sell mwf because I think it's more appropriate than scoop, but I'm not against scoop either.

GoStone The SourceForge project has been accepted! W000000! I am in the process of configuration mailing lists / discussion forums etc, and I'll provide links soon.

Respect to Jettero for getting his idea working. I must say its not what I had in mind though, so I will continue with my approach. I either get somewhere or I don't, we'll see!

jettero Sadly, that site I set up is precisely what I wanted (even though it's not finished). I suspect I'm going it alone. Either way, I can definitely help with the SL features and diagram machina as long as it's in perl.

To a limited extent I'll even use SourceForge if I have to. Though, I'll want to limit my exposure to !CVS and/or mailing lists...

Are you going to set up the demo scoop site? Or shall I bang one out this week?

2003/07/15: I was actually in the process of setting up a demo scoop site when I got r00t'd ... I think my 'puters are mostly stable again; so I might get back to that project soon.

2003/08/9: AFAIK, everyone has lost interest in this for the time being. I still have the mwf and scoop sites up, I just don't care about them at this time.

GoStone 2003/07/04: Just to keep you informed, Jettero plans to get a scoop site working soon and then we can start configuring it to behave the way we want. The SourceForge project is there if we want it, but for the time being we are not using it, as we are hoping that the proto-sites Jettero sets up can be used to generate the feedback and ideas we need. The more involvement we can get in the early stages the better the chance of success.

On the other hand if you think a mailing list would be a very good idea please let me know. SourceForge would expect us to make our code publicly available if we use their facilities, which isn't a problem in itself but it might be overkill.

Everything is very much in its infancy, so don't be disheartened by the apparent lack of progress or the simple nature of the TUGS site. I am pushing for a genuinely useful community site that will have features for blogging, club announcements and newsletters, articles, questions and debates and will possibly even include chess and other heathen games :)

I'm still not clear if the SL team want to be closely involved. Jet and I have abandoned ideas for common user-ids. We are hoping to allow SL style diagram formatting though.



This is a copy of the living page "Go Forum Project" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2003 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.