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BadHabits

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Taking back a move
Path: BadHabits   · Prev: TakingAFriendlyGameTooSeriously   · Next: TesujiIntoxication
   

This must be the worst habit, as it is close to a violation of the rules (Stones, once put on the board, can't move unless they are captured.)

I remember very distinctly a Japanese fellow, who was very well seen in the club, truly a nice person, always cheerful, showing this bad habit time and time again. One really needed to play fast, because if you wondered how to take best advantage of his mistake, he would take his move back, laughing to himself and tapping himself on the head for so much stupidity.

-- Dieter


Andrew: When playing on the computer if you slip when clicking on the spot you want, asking to take back is fine if you say you slipped right away.

Iron Chef Sakai: Although I don't find it especially rude, it is a bad habit. You should think it out well enough not to have to take back a move. In an old Go instruction manual, it said that it is quite common to ask to take back a move and polite to allow it, but it is still a bad habit.

KSLO: I agree, a mis-click on the cpu should be returned, but it gets tricky. In a game I was playing, I needed an undo due to a mis-click. This was early on in the game, and an obvious slip, and my opponent granted the re-play. Later however, on the side of the board, White played into a modest little trap of mine and after a moment, asked for an undo. I paused, trying to think of a polite way of asking if this was a legit slip-up. He posted a "?", and when I asked, his first reply was, "I gave you one". He seemed to think the point was moot. After a bit of discussion, in which I explained my hesitation, he did finally say that it was a mis-click, but that he didn't want the move back anymore. He then stated that he would never allow me a take back move again. All very unpleasant. Now I'm more careful before I click.

hdouble: I have recently added "no undo, please" to my profile when playing online. I don't mind people taking back moves in a teaching game or casual in-person game, but online most of the undo requests I have received have been a little suspiscious (i.e. opponent made a bad move and noticed it 5-10 seconds later). I know that mistakes happen, but I would rather keep the game moving rather than have it get sidetracked by midgame debates over undos, even if I lose as a result. Besides, playing with the knowledge that no undos are possible encourages more thoughtful, careful play.

Bill Spight: When I learned Go in Japan, saying atari and taking back moves were common practice. I found the custom quite charming, myself. :-)

Besides, one can take comfort in the thought, "If he didn't know what he was doing when he made the original play, why should I think he knows what he is doing now?" ;-)

Scartol: Beware also when playing online that your opponent (mine was named "goeplayer0") doesn't hassle you for several minutes begging for a takeback, finally relenting only when you have 15 seconds left for 20 moves. If I ever meet him, I'm gonna break his legs.

Velobici: A solution to this problem is to play a move and then have the discussion while his clock runs rather than yours. If he undoes your move, replay and explain that you wish to have the discussion while his clock runs rather than your clock. After all, he wants the undo, he should pay the time penalty of the discussion.

Err... I beg your pardon?

Kidding! Hyperbole. Exaggeration for comedic effect and all that..

Justin: Requesting an undo online, unless it is for an obvious misclick and promptly requested, is inconsiderate of your opponent. One either has to allow it, reinforcing a bad habit, or deny it, thereby introducing tension and sometimes anger. Either way it's just uncomfortable. At the local club, requests for take-backs are virtually non-existent outside of teaching games, but it's not uncommon for someone to offer a take-back for an absent-minded blunder (e.g, not noticing atari). Seems like that's the way it should be: don't try to undo unless it's offered. And be generous in offering undos when appropriate.

Doug Ridgway: Online, I no longer request undos, even for obvious and unintentional misclicks. It's not possible for the opponent to tell, through the computer, to tell what's a "dropped stone" and what's a brain misfiring. (You can't tell from timing: the delay may come from dithering about whether or not to request the undo.) Strategically, I'd rather lose games from my carelessness in clicking than lose games from being distracted about undo negotiations. In my experience, a clicko is one bad move, but getting upset leads to about ten. When my opponent asks for an undo, I always grant it. (If I'm annoyed, I can say to myself, "We both know who won that one, shall we play another?" and then hit okay.) Having a blanket policy, and one that my opponents could never argue with, saves me time and aggravation, and lets me focus on the game.

JohnAspinall: My KGS profile says that I'll offer "Undos for typos, not for brainos", but I personally hold to the same standard as Doug Ridgway above, for myself. Besides, moral high ground aside, there's a much more guilty pleasure that awaits when you allow some undos:

I was playing an even game with a player whose style was more suited to White in a handicap game - lots of slightly-overreaching moves, lots of complications. Plus he played fast - much faster than the time limits required. If it was an attempt to intimidate, it worked at first. I played cautiously, and fell behind. I finally got him in a trap many moves deep. Several moves in he made an obvious mistake; I was delighted to give him his requested undo. Two moves later he requested another undo as the reality set in. I gave it to him, of course. Finally he resigned, as he took the time to see what was really going on. I like to think that episode taught him something.

Nodog: It seems to me that undos are almost exclusively requested for tactical errors. Following Doug Ridgway's policy allows you to focus on Direction of Play which should lead you to a win, anyway.

TimBrent: Personally, I feel that undo is OK only if it is a teaching game.

MarkD: Well, I agree that you should carefully evaluate your move before clicking. But misclicks do happen. I was playing on a notebook some time ago. It was equipped with a touchpad and if you tapped the surface twice, that was interpreted as a left mouse button click.

After playing two wrong stones I found out that this notebook was not really good for playing Go online :) Fortunately my opponent agreed to my undo's, because they were after really obvious misclicks.

Hu: I think the important thing about undos is that an undo for a clicko should be requested immediately. The longer the delay, the more the request will be mistaken for a request for an undo for a thinko.

When playing on a laptop, I alert my opponent to the fact at the beginning. It has occurred to me that some might interpret this as a strategy to prepare to ask for thinko undos, but I think it is fair, and I try to avoid thinko undos and ask for clicko undos immediately.

Velobici: The laptop clicko problem is particularly severe when using laptops with touch pads (skip-pads, skating-rinks) in place of buttons. The laptop that I got for my eldest daughter is so sensitive that I have a hard time using it with a web browser. The pad is so sensitive that I frequently activate it without intending to do so. I never play Go using that thing. It would be a disaster of clicko's. Laptop buttons with some amount of spring force are a much better choice. Unfortunately, these laptops are getting harder to find. [ext] IBM seems to one of the few firms still building laptops without skid-pads at this time (20030729)

StormCrow: Most laptops with touch pads will allow you to disable the tap-click function of the touch pad so that only the buttons will actually click.


Warp: I once played in a local club friendly tournament against an opponent whose behaviour was simply incredible: At one point he played a move, pressed his clock button, thought about 10 seconds and then, without even asking took the stone back. I was amazed at this behaviour. He did not only failed to ask for taking back and simply just took it back, but had the audacity of trying to rethink his move on my time! When I asked him what the h*** he thinks he is doing, he just mumbled something about me not having made my move yet... He seemed to imply that as long as I don't make my move he could take his back.

Naturally I could have requested immediate disqualification, but since it was just a friendly tournament and there was no time problem I let this go as long as he put the stone where it was. He had to agree.

(This wasn't the only anecdote in that game: Later in the game he forgot pressing his clock button. I waited more than 5 minutes before he noticed. He had less than 1 minute left before byo-yomi. What did he do? Well, he tried to set the clock back while mumbling something that I surely wouldn't care if he did that... That was too much and I certainly didn't allow that.)


MarkD: Yes, there are some funny (and annoying) opponents out there Warp :)
I played an opponent who used his stones from the bowl and his prisoners to lay out some test moves during the game "Mhhh let me see, if I go here...you will go there....".

Just to annoy him I played a totally different move than the one he just tried (sort of a tenuki tesuji :-) ). His answer was "Hey! You are supposed to play there". After that, he took my move back. Just grabbed the stone and put it back in my bowl.

And no, he was not a child, but at least 40 years old.



Path: BadHabits   · Prev: TakingAFriendlyGameTooSeriously   · Next: TesujiIntoxication
This is a copy of the living page "Taking back a move" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2003 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.