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English go terms discussion
    Keywords: Go term

See also: Liberty discussion


Using Japanese terminology raises the barrier of entry to the world of Weiqi. The terms are confusing, and hard to remember for a non-Japanese speaker. It makes much more sense as players in an English speaking country, to use English terms. In response to people's point regarding the lack of conciseness of certain English words versus Japanese, if one thinks long enough it's easy to see the point is moot. Turn-at-the-end-of-stone is unecessary wordy, one could just say turning-stone.

Aside from the confusion aspect for non-Japanese players, there is also the cultural aspect. The game originated from China, and spread from there to Korea and Japan. Today, there are professional associations in all the aforementioned nations (amongst others). So what is it about Japan that makes it so special, that we must use Japanese terms, when one can easily come up with corresponding English terms?


I think that we should not use English terms in Go when there are so many good Japanese terms out there. Why say 'ladder' when we can say 'shicho', why say 'net' when we can say 'geta'.

Even worse, why say 'turn at the end of stones' when 'hane' is so much easier?

--MortenPahle, 13.11.00


While I agree that 'hane' is more convenient than the English phrase you propose, I think that using too many Japanese terms poses too high an entry barrier for aspiring Go students. Why say 'chuban' (which is rarely understood) instead of 'middle game'? There are only very few Japanese Go terms that don't have a nice counterpart in English, e.g. 'miai', 'atari', 'hane', 'aji'.

--ArnoHollosi


Maybe the use of non-English terms may confuse the English-speaking beginner. However, I think that, sooner or later (and normally when you read your first book) the beginner will see the 'foreign' terms anyway - and he will still have to learn to use them.
Then again, not all the English terms are that obvious - you need to explain what a 'ladder' is to a beginner as well, you may as well explain what a 'shicho' is. Also, English is not everyone's first language - using the existing and accepted (Japanese) terms will at least create a common basis for understanding when speaking with other people.

Does anyone know whether other languages have their own versions of Go-terms?
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single term that the French have translated, for example.

--MortenPahle


(a) I have to agree with Arno on the Japanese vs. English topic. Most of the beginners/weaker players I know are more familiar with the English terms. So let's keep it simple.

(b) In German there are several translations of Japanese terms such as:

  • vorhand = sente
  • nachhand = gote.

I could even tell you that there is a German word for a snapback (=mausefalle), but I just don't know the Japanese term (see (a)). :-)

-- BIG M

[Diagram]
Lion's mouth and tiger's mouth

The two terms that Big M mentions, exist in Dutch as well. As far as I know, they have been 'copied' from the same terms in chess. The term 'muizenval' exists in Dutch too, but I think that 'snap-back' would be familiar to a larger part of the Dutch players. Most other Dutch go terms are either translations from English, or more or less funny terms that are used to enliven a talk rather than to be maximally clear. I do know however a friend of mine who is trying to introduce the terms 'leeuwenbek' ('lion's mouth') and 'tijgerbek' ('tiger's mouth') for the shapes in this diagram, and there is also a rather common term 'sliert' (hard to translate, perhaps 'string' would be best) for a weak, eyeless group in an elongated, wall-like shape. Still, because much of the go literature here is in English, English terms (such as snap-back) are introduced in Dutch go terminology as well as Japanese ones. For a look at what Go terms are typically being used in Dutch, see TermsInDutchGoMagazine.

By the way, the Japanese term for snap-back is 'uttegae'.

-- Andre Engels



(Snap-back is utte gaeshi.)

In my humble opinion, a lot depends on the native language. E.g. at our club we use Lithuanian, Russian and English in conversation due to the various nationalities of our players. I observed that the use of Japanese terms often depends on the language. E.g. we almost never use "geta" because all 3 languages offer a corresponding, easy usable word for it. On the other hand, "opening" is used when we talk in English while we usually stick to "fuseki" in Lithuanian because this language doesn't offer a good counterpart for it. (Of course, there is a word for "opening" but its meaning doesn't exactly suit "fuseki" in our opinion.)

As Arno pointed out, there are Japanese terms which cannot be adequately translated into one's own language (atari, miai, aji...). That's why every Go player comes to learn these necessary terms sooner or later. So why not learn a couple of words additionally to make conversation easier and more convenient? Of course, one shouldn't go too far with this. "Niken takabasami" is not something what one should really know. :)

Also, many of the Go terms are difficult to understand even for Japanese people who don't know Go. Any Japanese beginner has to be explained what "atari", "joseki" and so on mean. So even Japanese often are in the same situation like we "outworlders".

By the way I think that "shicho" would be rarely used in the Go world if people knew the exact Japanese pronunciation and would stick to it. Far too complicated for many westerners.

--Olaf "owl" Martens


I have found a wav file of the pronunciation of shicho on a website ([ext] http://users.ewa.net/omaxwell/go-pron/go-pron.htm). To listen, click [ext] here.

--SifuEric


I have since I wrote the above heard two French versions of Japanese terms used.

  1. the infamous 'ladder' was described as "l'escalier" - the staircase. However, (and I was interested to hear this) the teacher also used "Shicho" in the same sentence and kept using "shicho", only repeating "staircase" when one of the beginners asked :-) It seems that a few foreign words just add to the mystical aura of Go, which fits in nicely with the French mindset :-))
  2. French for a 'snap-back' is..... "un snap". :-)

BTW - Olaf reminded me - check out the [ext] site by Odin Maxwell for how to pronounce Japanese-origin go terms by a native Go speaker.

-- MortenPahle


I just realized there is at least one important Dutch go term which I had mentioned yet: The 'bulky five' is called 'bijltje' (which means 'axelet') in Dutch.

-- AndreEngels


:-)
You remind me - I've heard the French refer to the bulky five as "le jeep" (as in the American car). It seems that the French prefer to translate into English rather than to their own language :-)

-- MortenPahle


There is a very good word list that translates Japanese go terms into Swedish: [ext] http://www.algonet.se/~palund/glossary/termer.htm

Compared to the wide use of Japanese terms in some English go books, we don't use Japanese terms at every opportunity in Sweden. For example, we say what corresponds to "two-space high pincer", not "niken takabasami", but may use either "hasami", the English word or the Swedish word for "pincer".

-- Arndt Jonasson


DaveSigaty: Another issue can often be seen when large groups of kibitzers are discussing high d* games on IGS. Many Chinese and Korean players are confused by the use of Japanese terms and have to ask what they mean. Naturally they know Go well but have never studied it in either Japanese or in English. I think that in such a situation people have a better chance of understanding the use of 'opening' than they do of 'fuseki'. Therefore I think that keeping the English terms (especially those made up of "every day" words) can make English a more useful international communication tool about Go.


Strange enough, Nobody here has ever mentioned Chinese terms? though Go was born there thousands of years ago. --Winddrinker


Winddrinker makes an interesting point here. We tend to see the widespread use of English as an exponent of the political and economic supremacy of the anglo-saxon world - at least I do. So we could think it only fair to use original Go terminology as much as possible. But then again, the fact that it has come to us in Japanese, is a manifestation of Japanese political and economical supremacy in the east the past centuries.
So, put aside any political correctness, or the desire to stay close to the original, what should we do? In my opinion, the tremendous development Go has known in Japan, reflected on the deepness of their terminology, outweigh the effort done by English translators, given also the already mentioned fact that the majority of players are not native English speakers. But it remains a matter of taste. As a teacher (beginners only), I mention the Japanese terms little by little, re-explaining them often or per request, as most teachers and writers seem to do.
-- Dieter


As for Chinese terms, I know a number of them because I learnt the game of Go ('WeiQi' in Chinese) in the Chinese medium. It is only much later when I came into English Go literature when I knew some of the English (or is it Japanese in disguise?) terms for Go. I must admit that I don't understand Japanese - so I don't know many of the Japanese terms.

However, the main obstacle in putting Chinese characters on the Internet is that most PCs around the world don't support the Chinese language, including those in my country, which has a dominant Chinese population. I can put Chinese characters on this page if I wanted to, but it would appear as rubbish on most people's browsers.

For interested people, I will put a (random) list of terms in 'HanYu PinYin', i.e. English characters that approximates the pronunciation of the Chinese characters.

  hane - 'ban'
  ko - 'jie'
  ko threat - 'jie cai'
  capturing race, semeai - 'dui sha'
  bamboo joint - 'shuang'
  crane's nest - 'wu gui bu chu tou'
  knight's move - 'xiao fei'
  life and death - 'si huo'
  throw-in - 'pu'

For those who want to find out more, you can try reading the Chinese web pages - but you browser needs to support the displaying of Chinese characters first! To do so, go to any search engine and search for the word 'weiqi'. Good luck!

--unkx80

In general, I like translation, as long as it can be done simply and clearly. "Atsui" means thick, "karui" means light. Fine. But "tsume" means packing, better not translate.

But rendering go terms into English has also caused confusion. "Nozoki" means peek or peep, but somebody did not like the connotation of sex peep shows and peeping Toms, and translated it as "poke". "Mannen" means ten thousand years, but "thousand year ko" has entered English go terminology. A friend of mine who was learning go thought that there was a difference between a thousand year ko and a ten thousand year ko. "Nidan" means two-step. But a nidan bane is sometimes called a double hane, which has led to some confusion. And a one-move approach ko (itte yose ko) is sometimes called a two-step ko, while a two-step ko (nidan ko) is sometimes called something else. There would not be such confusion if the terms had been left untranslated. ;-)

-- Bill Spight

MikeNoGo: It's kind of ridiculous that they changed it to "poke" because of sexual connotations, considering the verb "nozoku" that "nozoki" is based off of is also used to describe what "Peeping Toms" do. So leaving the sexual connotation in is the proper way to translate it.


What's more important, I think - is having a page here translating the basics between all (some) foreign languages. We all notice the degree to which non-Asians have had trouble accessing go materials, at least until recently. I also see how there's a certain lack of communication amongst Asians. This goes deeper than just go, as people separate by culture anyway.

But it's not asking much for each player to understand some basic terms in more than one language. Yes, we can say ladder instead of shicho, lingering taste instead of aji, momentum instead of sente, etc... this is mostly an awful thing, I for one will just say aji, sente, ladder? economy of lip movement is important... :)

It can't be be a requirement to speak every term in Japanese, because then where do you draw the line between go terminology and the Japanese language?

Two points...

  1. In favoring Japanese terms, do we slight the Chinese or Korean? Generally no, because Japan is where everyone goes to study, and make a living.
  2. .Are there differences in thinking that arise from language constructs? Let's say the Chinese don't have a word for a specific sort of concept - like aji. Instead their word means something inbetween one concept and another... Like riper aji vs not ripe aji.

An example: a primary color in Chinese is qing, which refers to a Blue-green, not Blue, not green, but somewhere inbetween. This contradicts modern color thinking, where B+g is a mere tertiary color, arising from mixing a primary B with a secondary, Green (Blue+Yellow). Heck, We dont even call peoples or nations by the names they call themselves! Zhong Guo(China), Deutschland (Germany) Is this more than superficial? [1] Or look at pronunciation, and how the English V is kinda W-like in Russian, how you can have two different kinds of an H sound in Arabic, or in Japanese, how they organise sounds in syllables of consonant-vowel pairs. There are a lot of inbetweens where we often think the absolutes are.

One might surmise that if the basic building blocks of terms (language, concepts) are different from other places, then differences can arise in the thinking process and results, as well. [2]

Kgr?: This probably doesn't belong here but there are very few modern linguists that believe that differences in language cause differences (or at least significant differences) in thinking. To choose a relevant example, languages where the color systems are much more different than chinese relative to english have been studied, and it has been clearly shown that there is no difference in mental representation of color. I can dig up citations if someone actually cares, but my point is that it's probably not true to say anything at all like "chinese people think about go differently because they speak a different language." The hypothesis that the original writer here seems to have picked up on is usually called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, in its strong form, and is unfortunately one of the most commonly believed linguistic fallacies.

Generally though, I think the cultural differences between Asian versions of go are slight and getting slighter, and Japanese is the Lingua Franca of go. For westerners to reject learning any of these terms on any conscious basis, is dumb. Just as it is equally unnecessary to learn all foreign terms - just for the sake of playing go.

Ben Barrett here did a nice job of making a cross-language dictionary [ext] http://pw2.netcom.com/%7Egogaku/english/sfgoclub/godic.htm but it's obviously incomplete with regard to the Korean and Chinese... but it's not clear to me that all these words have equal translations...

[1]: Interestingly enough, speaking of internationalism, the UN is in the process of unifying geographical names, to streamline things there...)

[2]: A pronounced example is religion, ie, where "Allah" and "God", mean in essence the same thing, but the isolated cultural differences create the modern perceptions of difference.(Ignorance, politicization, and illiteracy don't help) 'God,' 'Allah,' 'Eli,'(Aramaic - Christ's language) are preceded by 'Yahave' - YHVH (Hebrew) to represent "I am that am" - which is another way of saying "he who cannot be named" or: "he (non-gender) who trancends all concepts." Far closer, don't you think, to the Buddhist concept of God, and less like the superhero god concepts like Zeus or Thor. -ref J. Campbell... --Stevertigo


I just now edited English go terms. One of the things I did was link an English term to a Japanese one wherever possible. (In every case the page with the Japanese title is an alias of the English one, so the links still work the same.) I looked through the history after editing the page and saw that people have undone this in the past (see for example version 61). Is there a reason for this? I think might be nice for future editors of the page to see the English and Japanese side by side. -- David


BenjaminTsai: This would be because there is no reason to link to the Japanese term, especially as it's a list of English Terms. Why not link to the Chinese Term? Or Korean? Some English Terms are linked to aliases, but someday someone might decide to create a page separate from the Japanese term.


(moved from messages)

April 15, 2003:

Morten: Just some comments on some of the issues below. Although the majority of the pages on SL are currently (UK?) English, this is not a rule. (There are some pages in German). It was actually one of the things which Arno and myself had in mind in the very beginning of SL - the possibility of multiple languages being used. Noone should feel deterred from contributing something in another language than English.

As is pointed out, the nature of a wiki allows us to use several different terms with the same meaning, be they English, Japanese, Korean, Chinese or even Dutch - we do not need to chose a particular one and stick with it. Careful use of links and aliases will allow this.

The issue of 'Romanisation' is more awkward. I feel that changing the 'accepted' romanisation of a term should be avoided, although adding aliases with alternate spellings is fine. However be careful. If I have understood correctly, the normal english pronounciation of Oogeima is definitely not closer to the alleged correct spelling of Ogeima, for which Ohgeima is closer. Most of these issues should probably be discussed with one of our resident Japanese/Chinese/Korean speakers...

On a more general note, the current favourite form of a term is likely to change over the many years which we hope SL will exist. Setting up 'rules' which may be out of date in some time is counterproductive.

I am not sure whether 'plurality' is a good English word (I am pretty sure it is not a good Korean word :-) - but if it is, I think SL should embrace it.

Personally, I also find it one of the alluring things about Go - things are never as easy as they seem and the meaning of e.g. haengma to any player will change as he develops.

Bill: Well, if you want to make it clear that the first syllable in Ogeima is long, I would suggest Ohgeima, using a different romanization. Most English speakers would mispronounce Oogeima worse than they would Ogeima.
mAsterdam Yesterday, Arno said:

or rename the page. That way the new page still has all the history. I think most would agree that it is now right to rename Ogeima to Oogeima. But the edit page says (under the "Adjust pagetitle" entrybox) You are only allowed to change case, spacing, and [.,'-] characters in the pagetitle.

It would indeed be nice to preserve the history. However if it is not possible to do it easily - or make it easy easily I'll do it the way Charles described. Good Enough? (TM) for me.

Charles On the general question see levels of access. On the particular matter, I wouldn't approve of that change. Other people here feel differently, but I prefer English-language terms and would think the right direction would be to 'large knight's move'. The romanisation oogeima is rare - in fact there are no backlinks at all for that spelling here at SL.

mAsterdam Ok. Thanks again.

A few remarks just to let you know what my feelings on this (for some sensitive) issue are. This is an international go site in English. The vocabulary here should - as much as possible - reflect the vocabulary in use by go-players when they talk about go in English. There may be some differences between the vocabulary used by native and non-native speakers. While it seems impossible to serve all uses in all languages - is it hard to serve both native and non-native speakers? I don't think so, and in practice SL does serve both. If some words are different in the different groups - use both, explain.

There is a complication, though. A lot of the terms (sometimes translations, sometimes copies or sound-alikes) originate in other languages: Japanese - we do not say Nihonese -, Chinese, Korean (haengma). Now if there is a problem with subtle differences in meaning it often helps to look where the words came from, the etymology. I have been playing go for just a few months. When I will have years of experience I will know what terms are the most common. As it is now I have to guess. Because I am uncertain about the use of terms in the English speaking go-community I stick as much as possible to the Japanese words (e.g. on Elementary moves) just to be on the safe side. I put in the kana - because I like them and - to make sure that it is possible to backtrace. Sumisu - Smith. I just hope the more experienced people will add to or replace the words I used to improve the text into whatever is common. In short: So Ogeima it is :-)

Charles Fortunately we can acknowledge all terms in use here - not like in a book where one should choose and be consistent. And the wiki way is surely to tolerate various ways in discussions, rather than to try to legislate.

SAS: Note that we can write ôgeima or ōgeima. This is clearly better than using "oo", which many people would pronounce as in "moon", or even as two syllables. (I don't think that ô or ō can be used in article titles. But, as Charles has already said, Large knight's move would be a better title anyway.)

BobMcGuigan: I'm not sure where the practice of ignoring long vowels in romanization came from. I know that Go World magazine has done it for a long time. For words like Oogeima (or whatever romanization you like) it could be argued that the spelling "Ogeima" has become an English word borrowed from Japanese for use in the context of go, as have many other words. Certainly there are many many words borrowed from other languages into English that have lost their original pronunciation. In fact the process of borrowing words is common in almost all languages and usually the pronunciation changes to suit the phonological customs of the destination language. So I advocate using "ogeima" when speaking or writing English, and saying oogeima when you are speaking Japanese. Oba (Ooba in Japanese) has common enough usage to perhaps be accepted as a borrowed word. "Kyuuba" probably doesn't.



This is a copy of the living page "English go terms discussion" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2003 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.