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Discarded Joseki
    Keywords: Joseki

Which joseki have been discarded and why?


Yes, can anybody give examples of some well known joseki which is not just out of fashion, but has actually been recently demolished? That would be interesting! Charles, can you?


Tristan Jones I'm not Charles, but I do have something that I got from Alexandre Dinerchtein, if that will suffice:

[Diagram]
corner



This catenaccio joseki used to be considered joseki for Black, but it has now "been deleted from the joseki books". Dinerchtein says that it is too low.

Perhaps there are occasions when this line is good, for example if invading at san-san would give White too much influence, but generally sub-dan players like this variation because it can lead to complicated fighting. Even so, it doesn't obtain much territory in itself, and that fighting often favours White. Things might go something like this:

[Diagram]
corner



Of course, the honte is for Black to play at 5, but this line shows what happens when he plays elsewhere.

Charles Hmm, it seems to have been played in a Korean game in the past 12 months. Not an extinct joseki; and not a superseded joseki for which a clearly better line has been found; but a joseki that is being differently judged by some experts. Sometimes these lines survive as niche joseki, for some special contexts.


I can think of three reasons for joseki being discarded:

1. Improvements/Fashions in Go Theory e.g. The joseki is not efficient, or the joseki is superseded by one placing more influence on the centre.

2. Improvements in tactics. e.g Turning inwards in the large avalanche.

3. Changes in rules. e.g Intoduction and changes to komi - A joseki that results in an equal exchange of territory is likely to be rejected by Black as being too slow. Black may prefer something more dynamic, such as an exchange of influence for territory.

Old joseki that were thought extinct will continue to appear in my opinion, if the surrounding positions justify it.

Charles There would also be the situation corresponding in languages to expressions that are no longer idiomatic: the plays are quite comprehensible to pros, but somehow don't fit with a current way of thinking.


Dieter: Continuing on this particular "joseki", Guo Juan also recommends against it, because it has the following weakness:

[Diagram]
Thin shape

Please correct me, because I'm diagramming from memory and I haven't really checked its validity lately.

Tristan I have tried this, but Black usually plays B6 like this:


[Diagram]
Black's resistance



If White saves W1, then Black can connect beneath W5 with a much better result than in the previous diagram. If White blocks, Black captures W1 and a tricky situation emerges:

[Diagram]
Tricky



Black's stones are not easy to attack because White's group is also weak. Have I missed something?

Charles It ought to be better to play W3 at a, anyway: stronger towards the corner.


Also, things fall out of fashion for no apparent or good reason. The aigosumi joseki[1] is an example of this. Jowa used it successfully and there are no weaknesses in it. Fashion however deems it too slow. Not a good reason, in my opinion.--TimBrent

What makes you believe that the assessment of the joseki as too slow was a matter of fashion rather than, for example, careful assessment in professional play? Personally I think that the assessment "too slow", meaning "causing the player to fall behind" would absolutely doom a joseki from the professional point of view. That of course is not at all to say that we slothful amateurs can't still enjoy it. :-) --DaveSigaty

[1] At a guess, we're talking about this W2:

[Diagram]
Kosumi against kosumi

In any case this is on-topic, because this was played often around 1820, and then dropped out of fashion. But Chang Hao played it in 2002. One can guess that increases in komi cause trials to be made of discarded joseki, by White.

Charles Matthews

BobMcGuigan--It's interesting to me that this pattern, played in the era of no-komi go, was rejected then as too slow and is being tried again as komi increases. With no komi White has to try harder with more severe or even risky moves. On the other hand, as komi increases White seems to feel able to relax a bit. But I wonder whether standard moves in the no-komi era wouldn't work just as well in the komi era. But of course I'm forgetting the effect of giving komi on Black. Now Black has to play more severely whereas before it was, perhaps, possible to relax a little. This would all fit under the rubric The Psychology of Komi



This is a copy of the living page "Discarded Joseki" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2003 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.