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Japlish
Keywords: SL description
Poor Japanese in an English text, as opposed to ExplanationTerms of Japanese origin are now used by western players as quasi-English terms, but either with different meanings from Japanese (e.g. yose, fuseki [001]) or with a different range of coverage, e.g. hane, sagari [001]. Some Japlish terms are in widespread use in English, and have a different connotations and associations. Some may even have a well-defined specific meaning, different to the meaning when used in Japanese (to discover these is, for now, left as an excersise to the deshi). Japlish terms can obviously lead to confusion. It helps to mark them as such.
Discussion
Until John F. I'd like to make a general comment sparked off not by this page but by the one on [Sagari Tesuji] (now descent tesuji), though it seems to belong here as this is the definition page. Terminological inexactitudes abound on SL. Sometimes they give rise to useful discussion. Most often they don't but stay there to mislead future readers. Problems can arise whatever the language of the term, but it seems to me that the main problem arises when someone posts a Japanese term.[1] This is a special problem because so many terms of Japanese origin are now used by western players as quasi-English terms, but either with different meanings from Japanese (e.g. yose, fuseki) or with a different range of coverage, e.g. hane ... and sagari. The example shown in Sagari Tesuji is not usually called sagari in Japan. It would most often be called orikiri, sometimes sagarikiri (oru is another way of saying sagaru). Indeed, the usual Japanese definition of sagari is telling: it is a nobi towards the edge. This tells us several things. One is that it is really a mistake to call a nobi a push, as some people do, but also that what is in the Japanese mind is a space for a stretch, i.e. ordinary sagari does not usually get used for a move onto the first line. This is where the -kiri comes in: end, limit.
Until I'd suggest a new page giving guidance and a check list on how to introduce pages for new terms on SL. It should include the instruction to indicate whether the term is being introduced as a Japanese term or a Japlish term. If it is meant to be a Japanese term there should be advice to include, if possible, a definition from a Japanese book, and examples taken from **untranslated Japanese** books.[2] Using the western literature is just reinforcing the mistakes. I see nothing wrong with using a Japanese term as Japlish, just so long as it's marked as such. Pari passu for other languages, of course. BTW I don't agree with the philosophy of posting something wrong in the hope that someone will come along and correct it.[3] They usually don't - the evidence is all around you. Well, I have systematically tried to remove Japanese terms that strike me as superfluous here. This is an ongoing and time-consuming project, in fact. There would be fewer Japanese titles to pages, too, if I could figure out the odd problem of not being able to swap a page name for an alias. On the general question of who posts what - it's Liberty Hall, the whole point of a wiki. Things will get better only if there are enough police (vigilantes, call them what you will) taking an active interest. I often do 50 copy-edits a day here, but that's only 1% of the site. Disinformation about Japanese terms is constantly reinforced, by the way: see stuff about sabaki in recent Go Worlds. I wish people would not post stuff here just because they have read it in a book.[2] But I don't suppose that will ever stop. [2] I think in this case the culprit[01] is Tesuji by James Davies, although I don't have a copy here to check that. I had assumed that [Sagari Tesuji] is the commonly accepted term for this specific tesuji: The descent to the 2-1 point to win a semeai. If that were be the case, this would definitely not be a superfluous usage of a Japanese term, as that is far more precise in meaning than "descent tesuji". I still see a point of continuing to use this term, of course it had to be marked clearly as "Japlish" then. If it's in widespread use in English, and has a well-defined specific meaning, why not? It has always happened that terms borrowed from another language got a different meaning than in their original language. And in the tension between the "etymologically correct" and the widely used meaning of a word, there is no a priori winner. [3] I don't quite know what you expect. I intended to post a diagram for the tesuji, and linked it under the name I knew it (and my guess is that most Western Dan players would recognize it under the same name). I am afraid I neither own Japanese books, nor could I read them if I had. Should I refrain from posting then? Dieter: Continuing on dave's thoughts, an example from Dutch. The proper Dutch word for "attitude" has been "ingesteldheid". Close to that word lies "instelling", which means "institute". Over the years, people have started using instelling for both meanings. The last time I checked, "ingesteldheid" has even disappeared from the dictionary. Those who know that our language got a little poorer due to massive abuse of a certain word, may regret it, but that's the way languages work. [01] Could somebody please point out the page(s) where the term Sagari is used? unkx80: These are the pages where sagari is used:
mAsterdam Heh. Highly informative, as always. But I meant in the Tesuji book. unkx80: Oops. Anyway I thought that this can be a list of pages that may need reworking on. =P Charles I was doing some of that; but then I had to finish a newsletter, walk the dogs, cook dinner ... Don't worry, it will happen.
unkx80: Isn't the term "Japlish" referring to poor English spoken by some Japanese, or the other way round?
BlueWyvern: Poor English spoken by Japanese would be "Engrish". See
mAsterdam: Some Japlish in the making: Until This discussion arose from the following diagram being named tsuke-tobi joseki. In the course of moving, I had to modify people's quotes to keep making sense. I apologize if they don't refleect their original sense anymore. You may want to check earlier versions of kosumi tsuke joseki. Dieter
JF Diags 2 is a bad joke. Such usage is ungrammatical, and even though the term can fit Diag 1 it reeks of being another joke. Who's the prankster?
Bill: JF (1) I don't think tsuketobi is in the normal go lexicon; (2) you can't change the subject of the two verb forms in mid stream. The tsuke and tobi must be by the same player in all normal circumstances. (3) It seemed to me that using irregular Japanese, when perhaps we shouldn't really be using Japanese at all, was a leg-pull, not least because no name was attached. Maybe I over-reacted - apologies if so.
Bill: Re: (1) Absolutely not. JF I'm still curious who first introduced the term here: suspiciously similar to the one term everyone seems to know, tsukenobi. Spoof Japanese is not new, and I was trying to dig into my memory for examples. Can anyone remember any? The only one I can remember is from shogi: the player Mukinaka (as in Mukinaka's Joseki), and there were some spoofs on Anaguma (Bear in the Hole). I also had a friend who watched the shogi programs in Japan and tried to convince people there was a popular player called Harry Mashita. Then there was the famous Tuttle book by Ohara, who called Amano Heaven's Field, Ishida Stone's Field, and so on. That led to a lot of mickey-taking. But - BUT - the go ones escape me completely (though I think I can remember the perpetrators!). There was a BGJ with some examples of spoofs but I can't remember if they involved Japanese. One was something like an ad for Mathematical Rules of Go in 1,000 volumes by Jim Bates. It was alleged that someone in Europe tried to order it. (This was in London Go Centre days - showing my age!) All this subject to not having jumped to the wrong conclusion about this page, of course, but a page devoted to spoofs seems a good idea. Charles All very droll, doubtless. This is a copy of the living page "Japlish" at Sensei's Library. ![]() |