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Messages to People Currently Present in the Library
   

2003 June 20

Tristan: To use a good, authentically English expression, I have made a balls-up of my attempt to launch a page called Principal Study Technique from my homepage by using an alias from the word "which". If somebody could help straighten this out, I would be glad. Also, could somebody convert my data please to a tabular format? I don't know how to make tables in wiki :-(

UPDATE: I have managed to sort the alias business out myself, but thanks for your help anyway Confused. Which is now just a Wiki Orphan waiting for sombody to perform euthanasia upon it (i.e., delete it). Any help with the table formatting would be gratefully received still, thanks.

Confused: Tristan, I reformatted the page with a definition list. As far as I know, tables per se aren't supported, the closes would be preformatted text, which doesn't look too great either.

mAsterdam: Another Wiki vandal ? 24.175.248.144 "Joking" on Wikinews.

Stefan: Yes, but it's a mild sort of vandalism. At least this one didn't delete anything, he just added a funny bit. This is more WikiGraffiti? than vandalism.

2003 June 17

HolIgor: It seems that Dinerstein defeated Wang LC, 9p in the LG cup. I guess that is O Rissei.

phenomene : Yes it is O. More on the [ext] sponsor's page. There is even a sgf file (replace "(" by "(;" at the beginning and "KO" by "KM" if you can't read it).

Hu: The most recent edit of Yahoo seemed overly severe (and marked as only minor), so I reverted the page, but I'm not going to make a big issue of it if the edits are desired.

Deebster: Saccade decided to move the content of Attack and Defence onto Attack and Defense and edit some of the links to the former. Andrew W reverted the Attack and Defen*e pages, and I've reverted all the linking pages.

Wasn't this discussed recently(ish)? I thought the consensus was to leave the 'defense' page refering to the book, and the 'defence' page discussing the subject.
Of course, I'm sure Saccade didn't know that.

mAsterdam: I have seen "- the book" added to prevent confusion with an SL topic.:

etcetera. Maybe it is time for "A & D - the book".

Which one is the book? Enclosure joseki or Enclosure josekis ? There it might help, too. Done

Dieter: Yes let's do that and call it Attack and defense - the book. Next we make ... defense an alias for ... defence. But first we fix the links to the book. Done

2003 June 16

mAsterdam: I have (yet again) a statement/question on nomenclature?. While reading about joseki, pincers, enclosures and kakari I get the impression that these rules (almost/should) constitute a nice, simple convention?:

"Height" and "Distance" list moved to board geography.

Comments appreciated.

Hu: The Board Geography page deserves more visibility by being linked to from appropriate pages. (None come to my mind just at the moment).

2003 June 15

Tristan: Have the fonts and look of SL been altered in the last couple of days? Or is it just my ever-deteriorating eyesight that's deceiving me?

Tristan: Hmm, it seems that it's just my computer that's making it look different, as other webpages look changed, too. Maybe I "acquired" some "foistware" (have just run Spybot and removed some bad stuff), but I don't know how to check options for webpage appearance. Any help would be gratefully received. TIA.

tsjanl: The stylesheet defines "sans-serif" as "font-family". That means that the preferences of your browser determine which sans-serif font it will use. There lies the key. How it has to be done exactly depends on your browser and operating system. Mail me privately (sensei@tsja.nl) for more help.

tsjanl: FYI: I have added some tournaments to July2003 and August2003, but forgot to unmark the MinorEdit checkbox.

Charles If you do that, it's easy to fix by edting the page again, and saving without 'minor edit'. The change will then show up on RecentChanges, with 'diff' including the previous minor edit.

2003 June 14 mAsterdam to Charles:

I would like to move most of the content of the 3-4 point josekis to

and replace it on the 3-4 point josekis page by the appropriate links. That is, if this move does not interfere with your work on josekis. Does it?

Charles Well, that page is really the work of Andre Engels. Better find out what he thinks.

mAsterdam: The page has grown beyond reasonable page-size. The content will stay the same. I don't think he will object.

I saw that you where busy bringing system into the joseki pages at SL and wondered if such a move might jeopardize your efforts. That's the reason why I asked and the reason why I put the intended names here.

Charles As far as I'm concerned that page can be subdivided, say into three parts (low, high, other approaches); the only important thing is to make that quite clear on the joseki page.

mAsterdam: Ok. Did that (I think). I took three "sub-trees" out of the main 3-4 point josekis page, a fourth would be ok too (maybe later). It is not so huge anymore.

2003 June 13

Tristan I have moved the recent discusssion on English and language to another page called Lively Debate on English. Entertaining though it was, I suspected that it probably does not belong in this part of the library. Now we have a forum for arguing about English usage without clogging up this room! I hope that's alright with everybody. Please don't slap me too hard if it's not.

Charles Tristan, discusssion is Gollum-speak.

(Later: I see this earned me a WMBT link. It's the way Gollum speaks in the Lord of the Rings: too many 's' sounds - my preciousss ...)

mAsterdam: Zenk u. Eye shoo dev noan zet.

Andrew Grant: It was entertaining, but I don't think it really belongs in any part of SL (except a page like this where the content is not permanent). This is meant to be a wiki about Go, after all, and the Go content of this page is so tenuous as to be effectively non-existent (someone queried the British spelling of "defence" with a C in "Attack and Defense/Defence"). There are some non-Go pages, such as the discussion of copyright law, that are there for a practical purpose, in this case to try to prevent people from posting copyrighted material and getting Arno and Morten into trouble, but a discussion on spelling? There are plenty of newsgroups out there for that sort of thing.

Tristan: Well, if you really, really feel that strongly about it, go ahead and delete the page that I made, but I would like you not to, since it's not doing anybody or anything any harm sitting in its little corner of SL, and somebody might want to look at it now and again. In my view, it's all very well keeping a Wiki strictly on-topic, but on the other hand the occasional diversion can be enjoyable. This isn't an academic forum, you know, but a place where amateurs can discuss their favourite game without fear of getting their heads bitten off - and that, I believe, should entail a certain tolerance toward individual members' bees in the bonnet.

2003 June 12

Charles I have come across discussion at Tsumego from games 17 solution, referenced from the short semeai discussion page, that really is obscurely placed. I think it should be more prominent, at least. Both those pages need an updating edit.

2003 June 9

Charles I have been editing down the various pages about liberties to get them to a reasonable and readable size. This has meant cutting out some side discussions, and much duplication too. No disrespect intended where cuts have been made.

2003 June 8

mAsterdam: Some Wikinews! And it's not even my birthday. Great! With this Arno made most of the text at Links in diagrams of historic relevance only. I did put some sample linked diagrams there, though. Wow.

fhayashi: Of course, this means that there is a lot of editing to do...

2003 June 7

Bill: Well, I am off to the hinterlands for vacation. :-) Best to all.

mAsterdam, I wonder if you would mind freeing the pages Up and Down for CGT values that have those names? We can make other pages for them, but the current Up and Down pages are just aliases. Many thanks.

mAsterdam: Of course I would not mind. I assume you mean this: Up and down would be the (31kyu) Beginner? page, and both Up and Down would explain the CGT values. I'll start changing the [Up] links into [Up and down] links based on this assumption, so you can use both [Up] and [Down] when you get back. Have a nice trip.

BTW a shoulder hit always hits from above. But how about a kata-tsuki ?

Bill: Many thanks, mAsterdam. :-) Hasta la vista.

2003 June 6

DJ: The Associazione Goistica Italiana has a new [ext] website!!
Please visit and leave messages and abundant comments, as it is still under construction and we need your feedback...

Marfack: Regarding the "sandwich" vandal of yesterday and today (ISP-67.11.146.135): He admitted his deed on KGS this morning, at about 11 am, after complaining that he could not reenter SL!! KGS handle: Mig12, and the user info says his name is Miguel Vazquez.

Dieter: He couldn't ? I can't think why ...

Arno: apparently someone else was using his computer to fool around ...

2003 June 5

Bill: Well, I have finished the WME/rewrite of the Liberty page. Have at it! :-)

TimBrent...seems we have just had another Wiki vandal in here...took out the Sandwich page content and removed the reference to it on the Front Page. I have the ISP info....

2003 June 4

mAsterdam Is there a good reason to continue this discussion [of liberties] here instead of at secondary liberties discussion or liberty discussion?

Move made by Charles Matthews to liberty discussion, of relevant messages of June 3 and June 4.

Another note: I feel a little guilt and a little pride at the same time for re-opening this can of worms. Fools can ask questions the wise cannot answer.


Dieter: WME of 3-4 point distant low approach. Charles and Dave, a.o. may want to verify nothing got lost or mutilated.


2003 June 3

TimBrent: I love the picture of the goban on the front page :).

Frs: I like the idea to have a photo there, but the colors of the current one aren't very attractive or inviting. It drifts very much into gray. The wooden surface in the background has little contrast to the goban. A still not perfect but -IMHO- better photo is at [ext] http://www.di.fc.ul.pt/~jpn/gv/gv.htm

Jan: I believe it's not a photo, but a ray-traced picture :-)

DaveSigaty: It is under development on RGG right now. Better colors, shell stones, etc.


2003 June 2

Bill: Does anybody know what page this position is discussed on? I was going to add a comment when my computer crashed, and I haven't been able to find the page again. Thanks. :-)

[Diagram]
Where am I?



unkx80: The page is 1001 Problems Erratum 5. I suppose you had wanted to followup my comments? =)

Bill: Thanks, unkx80. :-) Actually, your comments are perfect. I just added a note about White's play.

unkx80: You are welcome. =)


2003 June 2

Charles I'm close to completing an overhaul of joseki page titles on SL. The principles I've been following are explained at joseki nomenclature - expert names.

Bill: I object strongly to the editing of the Liberty page. It is one thing to add a discussion page. It is quite another to hack up an existing page. As one of the original authors, I object!

Charles Well, I naturally saw this as a way forward. The way back, by restoring an old page, exists here too. I wouldn't call reopening a master-edited page, after six months, for more development or subdivision, so hasty.

mAsterdam: This escalation was not at all what I had in mind when I shared the difficulties I had in trying to understand what some authors mean by secondary liberty. Should I begin to feel sorry or is this just something inevitable at a Wiki?

Charles As I understand the wiki concept, editing is as inevitable as death or taxes. It depends on what kind of editing. The basic wiki concept is 're-factoring'; calling a WikiMasterEdit implies a certain finality. But SL is too young, surely, for that. I certainly mean no offence to Bill or anyone else. But the 'secondary' aspect of liberties needs more examples to make its scope comprehensible to the newcomer - approach move is a potentially complex idea in the worst case. I have supplied a number and many more could be given. I'd like to see that concept opened up further, and then return to the wording of liberty sense 2.

On the whole, and without prejudice to the particular case of the page in question, there is too little editing here, I'd say. Many discussions remain in 'thread' form.


Bill: While I agree that there are many pages that need editing on SL, it is also true that there are many poorly edited pages. One principle of creating (and editing) hypertext is that you cannot assume that any page will be read in sequence. Even if there is a sequence at the moment, that can change at any time. Rather, you must assume that the reader comes to the page with zero context. You must therefore include enough context in the page or by links for it to make sense, preferably the former. This means that hypertext documents perforce should be more redundant than regular text, which is about 50% redundant, to start with. This is in tension with the idea of factoring, which reduces redundancy.

And Charles, I took and take no offense. But I do think that the original page was fine as is. The problem with the new version is that it emphasizes the meaning of liberty which is used to define capture, and deemphasizes the meaning that is important in actual play. The original page had a good balance between them. As for restoring the original, I do not want to start a feud. Please restore the original yourself. Thanks.

Charles No feud, of course. I don't wish myself to restore the original; certainly not at this point. I'm sure that others will have opinions on whether the indicated change is an improvement or not. It's a little too early to close down the discussion, I submit.

Bill: OK, but it's also too early to keep the changes made, then. I'll restore the previous version.

Charles OK, I have a family to feed right now. I do think mAsterdam may feel that certain matters are being dealt with above his head.

mAsterdam: Thank you for your gentlemenship. Well, yes, a little. But I accepted both your mentorship (earlier on too, but right now just mean in this liberty discussion) when I decided not to just change it into what I would have liked. So no problem here.

Because of the importance of the liberty concept to go I assumed that there would be more than meets the eye - well, my eye. I 'm not always that reluctant to make changes. You might take a look at the history of base. On the topic itself: I did put a version of what the page could be without the confusing focus on two meanings at the end of secondary liberties discussion, in correspondence with the practice of go players using liberty in the (extended) sense of 'move to capture' when discussing boardpositions, and dame only when they explain the basics to beginners.

Bill: OK, Charles and mAsterdam, let's move forward. :-)

Charles, I agree with your aim of giving more examples of "secondary" liberties and support your efforts. However, the Liberty page needs to stand alone, in the sense that we cannot expect that a novice will read anything else. Therefore it needs a couple of relatively simple examples on it, possibly even ones that are elsewhere. I suggest one example with an eye and a sagari, since it is common and relatively easy, and one with a 4-point nakade. It is not as easy to understand, but is an representative example of an significant class of liberties. I will be happy to add the examples myself.

BTW, if I were a naive reader and I saw the title of a page about "secondary liberties" I would not know what it was about. I would have heard about liberties, but would think that, whatever secondary liberties are, they can't be very important. OTOH, if I saw a title about "moves to capture", not only would I know what it was about, I would have a better idea of its significance. :-)

As for "primary" liberties, I have been thinking that their significance had to do with defining capture. But they also play a role in classifying different semeai, as shared liberties. Since Liberty is an overview page, I think that an example, say with a single shared liberty and no eyes, would be appropriate.

Es bueno?

Charles Comme tu le veux, Guillaume. I have work to do elsewhere on SL, and in the non-cyber world too.


munchkin:How can I download this site so I can view it offline? Apparently there's a page somewhere around here that'll let me do it but I can't find it :( Thanks.

Charles See SL Snapshot.


Charles Matthews I have moved the discussion about liberty to secondary liberties discussion. To respond to the passing comment about the strong groups page. Well, maybe it needs some improvement (like much else here, no doubt). I didn't imagine that anyone would turn to it for a definition of what a strong group is. I am trying to get my ideas on strategy organised around three centres: framework theory, thickness cycle and the aji machine. Probably in each of those cases there can be quite long discussions about the correct terms to use: we have certainly seen this with thickness. But pages with examples are needed before those discussions are 'complete'.


2003 May 31

Charles Adding the new keywords: can I suggest these be minor edits?

mAsterdam: They are. Except the first one.


Question on naming classes of moves moved to elementary moves.

2003 May 30

Velobici: There are footnotes on a number of pages here at SL. The footnotes are great. In the body of the text, they are links to the footnote itself at the bottom of the page. It would be wonderful if we can add a link at the footnote that takes the focus back to the body of the text where the footnote is referenced. I dont see a way to do this at present. ;( An example is available on keima slide and ogeima slide.

Deebster: Surely the back button/key/function does that in (almost?) every browser?

HolIgor: There are two unsolved problems in the Snapback Workshop of the level of single digit kyu. I don't want to post the solution. Let somebody else solve the problem. The dan players would not be interested, they see these things at a glance. But we have several players of approximately my level that could try.

BobMcGuigan: Wiki vandal at work? See Non Joseki Exercise 5 Solution.

Deebster: Jim Kiraly, have you given up on your Go Blog? I notice you've deleted all the content and removed the link from your home page...

2003 May 27

Fhayashi I want some opinions on book purchases. Should I get the English 3-volume Ishida Joseki dictionary, or save up for the 1997 Japanese update, or save up a LOT of money for the big Nihon Kiin encyclopedia? Or forget this joseki business completely? Also, any comments on the new Mastering the Basics series by Bozulich and van Zeijst?

Kiseido's got a special for KGS players, which is 15% off and no shipping, thus prompting this purchasing plan.

Charles If you're still a DFK, save your money. Certainly look at a single-volume joseki book like Essential Joseki first.

Bill: Unless you enjoy joseki, why bother? To get much from joseki study, you need to be approaching shodan, I think.

unkx80: I think you should go for the life and death problems and other techniques like tesuji first.

Scartol: I have the "Get Strong at Invading" book and while I still don't consider myself very strong at invading, it did provide some concrete tactics that became immediately useful in my games. I agree that L&D and Tesuji are better places to put one's energy for now.

unkx80: To add on, the opening and the related josekis rely heavily on the various techniques (life and death, tesuji, shape, etc.) as the underlying fundermentals. It is hardly useful to study josekis without getting a strong grip on these fundamentals. Interestingly, when I teach some beginners how to play Go, they will invariably ask me things like how to play the first move or how to start playing, to which my response is anywhere. To those beginners who heard of josekis and ask me to teach them josekis, I will say don't bother. To those beginners who are really persistent, I will show one of those simple ones with only five or six moves, but delve deeply into some more complicated variations with capturing races or life and death issues, they get stumped and then they get my message. =)

2003 May 26

Charles It looks to me as if 68.120.128.31, who has deleted whole pages yesterday and today, is a persistent Wiki vandal. I know it says somewhere that librarians can block IP addresses ... some day I'll find that page again.

Stefan. Blocked for 12 hours. What you want to do is click on "librarian" if you've set it in your UserPreferences.

May 21, 2003

Charles Arno, Morten - I have updated the Meatball wiki page after their latest 'biggest wiki' chart - but they are using old data about SL. Can you supply new numbers?

Arno: I did. But we remain in 15th place.

Charles It's no surprise to be behind the Wikipedia versions in various languages, though.

May 20, 2003

phenomene : Sad news. I've heard the 25th World Amateur Go Championship was postponed due to SARS. Does anyone confirm? If so we should update the June2003 page.

Charles I have heard from two directions that it will now be held in October.

Richard Hunter When I was in the Nihon Kiin last week, I heard unofficially that it may be held in October, to be decided in August.

May 19, 2003

Frs: How do I create a new page named "Go++"? The character "+" does not work in page names. See version 86 of GoPlayingPrograms for details, please.

May 17, 2003

Tristan Rats! We've got another Wiki Vandal on the loose again. The Front Page and Go Playing Programs pages need to be restored. If, Wiki Vandal, you are reading this, please realise that you cause no more than a momentary inconvenience since everything is backed up and can be replaced. Find something more constructive to do; you might even find playing go quite worthwhile.

May 16, 2003

Dieter: Nico, are you sure this is a good idea ?

Nico: Moving the computer related links is just a proposal. Many of these links have their own SL page where they were discussed. Plus the links being duplicated and some of them deprecated. By the way, many links were missing. Please revive the old pages if you feel so.

Dieter: Hm. You're probably right.

Tristan: To whomever was editing my combos page, you can finish tidying it now. I hadn't quite done with writing it when you altered it. Sorry for the bother.

Charles Me again - time to make dinner, though. One way is to save a page as a minor edit first (only visible at FullRecentChanges), to admire; and save again with the minor edit box cleared when you're through (then available at RecentChanges).

May 15, 2003

JF I've seen LOL or lol a few times here lately (I think it was here, anyway). Wassit mean? List of Links and Lazy Old Layabout don't seem to fit.

Tristan: It's netspeak for "lot of laughs". Similarly, "ROFL" means "rolling on the floor laughing".

Stefan: Funny, I always thought it meant "laughing out loud".

Tristan: Now you're splitting hairs - "lot of laughs" and "laughing out loud" mean the pretty much the same thing, don't they? LOL! :-)

May 13, 2003

Dieter: Please post technical go questions at the Big Question Mark. This page should really be reserved for messages that are relevant only a short while.

Charles And technical SL questions at Guinea Pigs Feedback.

May 13, 2003:

Query moved to BQM87


May 9, 2003:

mAsterdam: At Opening Systematic Classification a new topic, Links in Diagrams starts to take shape. Both discussions would imho benefit from splitting - but I do not feel up to doing that myself yet. Would some senior SL citizen please make the effort?

Blake: It is done. :)

mAsterdam: Great, thank you. And by the looks of the contributions it did not kill the discussions. (Sigh of relief :-)


Messages from December 2002 to April 2003 inclusive have been cut and pasted un-edited into Messages To People 2002 12 - 2003 04

Messages from July to November 2002 inclusive have been cut and pasted un-edited into Messages to People 200207 to 200211.

Messages from January to June 2002 have been cut and pasted un-edited into Messages to People 200201 to 200206, to make this page size more managable for editing in some browsers.



This is a copy of the living page "Messages to People Currently Present in the Library" at Sensei's Library.
(OC) 2003 the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0.