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Teaching Game 67
Path: CommentedGames · Prev: TeachingGame66 · Next: TeachingGame361 PageType: OngoingGame
This is a Teaching Game so please add generous comments. Anyone can a question or kibitz. It makes for a good learning experience (and nice reading material for others). Hopefully we see some dan level player with their kibitzes here as well
JoeSeki W106 I was wondering the same thing. Whether I should leave them for later as ko threats or use them now to destroy eye space. I will play this to improve my shape while keeping sente. This gives you 6 on the side for one eye and I don't think I should play here any longer as there are no more eyes to destroy here. I can destroy the second eye by playing in one space or hane at the edge to make that a false eye. so the 2nd eye comes in the middle someplace. I think rather the proper thing to do is not to try and kill you but exploit the weakness of this possiblity by attacking something else and try to creat a double attack. It would be ideal if I could get an attack that forced you to run me into the top right. So I'll give this a lot of thought and see what I come up with. I wish some stronger players would comment. I can't help but feel this is a where you and I need to learn how to think about the game properly to improve. Are we reinforcing bad practices? DJ B105: I've been thinking that this sequence was your privilege. I wonder whether it would have been better to leave it unplayed (you know, ko threats an all the rest...). JoeSeki B104 Let's push as much as I can DJ B103: Uh... JoeSeki White 102: I tried to read out the cut sequence. I thought you got G7 before I could cover the cut. Then it's an interesting running battle that I couldn't quite read out. Alas I think it would have been bad for you if you had tried the running battle (unless of course you catch the white stones, then it would be great, but that's gambling, not reading)
AvatarDJFlux B101: Oh, tough luck! I have to submit... :-(
JoeSeki W98 Black 99 looks very good to me. Assuming black is in no trouble on the left. I'm gonna push here a bit and see what happens. If Black is thin on the left, then I think Black 99 took the whole board into consideration. He protects the upper right from a reduction, while protecting the right hand cuts a bit (it's harder for me to use the aji here) It also takes territory in the middle while helping the lower stones by making it harder for me to dive in deeper (if you start a running fight, I have no place to run now)
DJ B99: I agree with you, I have allucinated... :-( JoeSeki W98: I didn't like blacks choice of moves for 97. White can say atari and threaten to capture the B97 or cut off a large chunk by cutting at E10, so B97 didn't really do anything for you, it really just helped white put more stones in the middle. I still want to drive into your group to eliminate your eye spaces. B97 tries to accomplish too many things at once. I expected H11, which I think solves all your problems. Which if I think about it, you can just keep in your pocket an this group isn't in too much trouble anyway. Assuming your group is okay, I would think the proper thing to do would be to grab a bit more terriotory and safe up you other groups. Do you have the time?
DJ B97: And I thought that my LS influence was one of my assets! I'll think twice... JoeSeki W96: I liked blacks last move a lot, it creates eye shape in the middle which will mitigate the need for a running group. For that reason I thought I should ignore it and play in the middle instead, but then I have a runnin group, and your's is stronger then mine. So I'll settle it and let you settle yours. As for the other two groups I have my eyes on they are your right hand side stones which have a lot of cuts that have a lot of aji for me to exploit. I also have a nice move on the bottom to make your bottom black stones have only one eye and thus force them to run. It is my hope I gain more territory in this fights to come. I half expect to nab the single black stone at the bottom in the ensuing fights. But realisticly that's wishing and not reading.
DJ B95: Uhm, you may be right, even if I don't consider this group that weak. I wonder which are the other two... unless you consider a group the solitary stone in m4. JoeSeki W94: AjiKeshi means I lost potential here, I think this is doing exactly what I want it to do. I think W92 is connected back to my white stones, and that you only have one eye for this group now. So I have the running battle I wanted. I don't think I have any weak groups now, but Black has 3 groups I can target.
DJ B93: I think I am connected. Also a should connect, but maybe it gives you more forcing moves. It's difficult to decide... JoeSeki W92: Is it connected really? This looks like an interesting spot to see what happens.
DJ B91: Connection. It looks like a Dame point, doesn'it?
JoeSeki W90: Now black seems to have the weak group DJ B89: Yup, same here. JoeSeki W88: Simply connecting seems best.
AvatarDJFlux B87: Giving Atari to W86 (above a) was tempting, but then the ensuing fight? would have little chances to succeed, with risks for black LS group. JoeSeki W86: A few interesting variations I have to be careful about, but I think black is in trouble here.
AvatarDJFlux B85: Mamma mia! More than a month from the last move... I must apologise! JoeSeki This game seems to have lost interest by viewers and players. Should we call it here? My life is getting busy and I could use the time. ChessWhiz: Actually, I think viewers are still interested -- it's the players that are moving more and more slowly! I personally find this a very interesting game, and I hope it's not called off now.
AvatarDJFlux from a remote computer: I have not lost the interest at all! It is just that the game has reached a very delicate point, and a mistake now would mean spoiling a fine game. JoeSeki: Glad to hear from you!! I was getting worried. How about you open up a variation page to consider what you are thinking. We could all comment on them, and maybe find the right move for you. Personally I think you have to push as best you can and then give up the attack on the white stones and patch up your weakness. White would have to do the same, and then you can try something new. I do agree with you that we have all the time we need, it was just a drastic change from prior speeds. Just stay in touch and all will be fine :) JoeSeki W84: This is the only move I think. There are others to consider, but I think this is the best. I've analized each move a great deal. Barring any complete misreads I think this is the best move for White. Black is in for some trouble I think. When I have time I'll document some of the variations. I considered b-d as alternatives, and I don't think any of them are as good as this. Would anyone be interested in the variations associated with b-d?
DJ B83: After so much celebrating (ehm... drinking, eating and being generally merry till late...) my brain feels full of cotton... JoeSeki W82: Your attack seems too loose to me. Let's see if we can break it apart and help my stones at the same time. Hope you have a wonderful Holiday Season
AvatarDJFlux B81: I am sorry too, I'm very busy at work and little time is left for enjoying myself...
JoeSeki W80: Sorry I was away on Thanksgiving vacation. As much as I think this black group is vulnerable to a sever attack that might kill it, I feel compelled to protect myself. There are a few weakness you could probe at that would give you easy life if I attacked prematurely. So Patience first
DJ Black 79: Yup! I asked because I didn't see your UserName, just the IP address... JoeSeki W78: Yes I fixed my mistaken numbering.
DJ Black 77: Joe, is it you that corrected the numbered diagram? I assume so, and this is my answer. JoeSeki White 76: I think you have some eye shape trouble here. I think this attack on your group is sente and also works with all my stones in the area. The forcing move of Black 73 doesn't look so good right now.
DJ Black 75: I cannot come with anything fancier, I have to protect somehow this group and I couldn't find a defensive move that could also play a role in the attack of the three white stones. Attack to be postponed for the time being and maybe forever... JoeSeki White 74: I think I'll attack your bigger group then and settle my white stones as I attack. One stone is not as important as a group. I think I'll settle my stones and take territory as this fight develops. I think Black 73 must be a two-space extension first to a (now B75).
DJ Black 73: I can't resist! I cannot resist! Kikashi first and then... JoeSeki White 72: I think that the game is even, but how the three white stones get resolved will decide the game.
DJ Black 71: To answer your question: yup, I want that territory badly enough... To answer my question: yup, I promised myself to play a calm and collected game, not to go on reckless attacks... ;-)
P.S. If I try to count the territory as it is now, it gives me:
White:
Black: Dead even, I would say! What do you think? Is there any strong player willing to make a better assessment?
JoeSeki White 70: How badly did you want that territory? DJ Black 69: For the time being, I'll keep on answering submissively... JoeSeki White 68 I don't have a clue how to play this middle game.
DJ B67: I've read somewhere this is a submissive sequence, but that was referred to a boshi on the fifth line: I wonder whether taking territory on the fifth line has to be considered such... JoeSeki Extend left or right. I choose right so as to damage your moyo, and gain thickness in the middle.
DJ Black 65: This is a sort of weird move (but neither have I often seen a cap on the sixth line...), not very aggressive.
AvatarDJFlux: I see the time you took for your next move was well spent: your analysis is definitely thorough, and the move you came up with is very difficult to deal with. For example you're entirely right when you say that if I stick to my moyo you're going to get thickness, and my group to the left could be endangered. JoeSeki White 64 I have been studying this board pattern very closely, and believe it is a perfect problem for discussion. Fundamentally I think White has made a horrible blunder early in the game by letting the white group on the right side become isolated White 38 was probably wrong?, and giving Black such thickness. But we are here, and the problem is where should White play now? White has about 30 points on the board. Black has about 25 with a tremendous moyo possible in the top right. If he closes that off, it's a 50-point gain, and the game is almost resignable. So I looked at the points a-f (f is now White 64) and each deserves some evaluation. Maybe in depth if necessary to clarify the situation. If I choose a then I think the proper black answer is to settle his stones on the lower side and let the single black stone fend for itself. White's move at a does not develop well. If I choose b then Black could take a two-space extension as well, but it would be a mistake. White gets profit for free, and then White gets another move. If Black locks down his moyo in the top right then Black gets much more profit than White did; and the black group can still settle with the extension, or run away. So it has choices. Only if Black makes a mistake by following along is b a good move. Black should ignore it. If I choose c it invites Black to seal his moyo, and that becomes harder to reduce or invade. 50 points for Black, for White 15? Doesn't seem fair. If I choose d then I am recognizing that invading will be really tough. I intend to run anyway. But where do I run to? My stones are very, very far away. It won't be a pleasant journey for sure. You'll build more thickness to negate what territory I do have, and I think it's pessimistic. If I choose e then I think it will get swallowed as Black is very strong locally and it's not a good reducing move. It's complex, but I think it's a bad move and not even worth considering. The general focus of all my attention has been how big a moyo Black might get. If I let him finish it off, then White has a very hard game. So a leaning move or a cap is proper. But a cap on the fourth line? Wow! If you take a knight's move away, then I can play c to see if you really wanted that territory as f (f is now White 64) was not hurt too badly with a knights move. If you chase me out, I'm already on the outside and will get thickness instead and then the moves at a or b might become worthwhile for White. If you ignore it, then I really get to damage the upper right black position. So the problem on how to answer becomes very difficult for Black. I'm not sure about a leaning attack. The cap seems straightforward. I think if White chooses wrong here, the game is essentially over. This is the kind of position that turns the game one way or another. I choose f (White 64) DJ Black 63: I'm afraid I have to patch my shape here. Black 53 was meant to do something that it cannot do anymore, that's why I said I've wasted three moves... JoeSeki White 62: Definitely sente for you. I think White 54 should be here instead, then this side would be tough for you. But I think you can handle yourself on the left. I think central influence is still important for White. As I look at the game. I see solid white groups, and a few weak black groups. Black 53 is too far away from the bottom stones and will come under attack. and the left side needs to be settled or it will become heavy. Black's moyo is not quite complete yet either, in the top right. I'd like to see the opinion of a stronger player though. Path: CommentedGames · Prev: TeachingGame66 · Next: TeachingGame361 This is a copy of the living page "Teaching Game 67" at Sensei's Library. ![]() |