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New Year's Rengo 2002
PageType: OngoingGame
Make your move in the SL New Year's rengo for 2002! Make your play on main board and circle it (unmarking the previous play). Also, make your play on the numbered board, and leave a brief note identifying yourself and your play. Every 10 moves we have to start a new numbered board. For how it's done, see Ongoing Game. Enjoy!
unkx80: B75. Strengthening the dragon and... Lucky: W74. I don't think that black is so bad. After all he has more teritory. If he can handle this fight the game should be OK for him. HolIgor: B73. As promissed in order to end this game to the New Year 2003 I make a move for black when nobody replies for a while. This is my second move in the row. Black's position is quite difficult as taking the territory along the looser's line leaves too much power to the opponent. But it is not hopeless yet. dnerra: W72 -- I grab the easy one! ArnoHollosi: looks to me like this is another turning point. Depending on my mood I would either connect the cut with 73 or storm abead and initiate an (unreasonable) death battle by trying to save the cut off black stone. If black plays 73 he cedes the center to white. OTOH, maybe there is an effective attack against the white group on the upper right? If so, then the connection would be sente and black could storm ahead. If the connection is gote and white expands her center, can black still win? Hm, looking at it again, the connection seems sente. After all, white has two lonely stones at the top to look after as well. HolIgor: B71. Atari
AvatarDJFlux: hmm, nobody wants to play for black? :-)))
AvatarDJFlux W70: What to say, I'm playing for W, but I'm just too b....y afraid of making stupid mistakes... ;-) HolIgor: B69. Cut then think :). I played for white last two games. Lucky: B68, hmm, nobody wants to play for white? unkx80: B67. Lucky: W66: White must come out. Another nice move for W64 was at 67. Sai's move :-) unkx80: B65: Just to get the game going. dnerra: W64 -- now we have top play here, after all this effort... unkx80: B63: "Now you can see how badly I really play." =) Lucky: W62. Dave is right but white should try, nonetheless. NYSR-Other moves for W60 DaveSigaty: B61, let us see where W is going with this. B stays strong in the upper right and secures his territory there. If W wants sente in the center, I think that she can not completely fix up the shape of the upper right W group.
Lucky: I also think is a very interesting position. I would like very much to play 'h' with white. I think white should find a way to do this with good timing. I start with W60 to see how black will answer. As for the threat of black 'e' see NYSR 2000 move 60 aji
AvatarDJFlux: Lucky, after this exchange is over, would you mind to say something about the choice of W60 compared to y or y+j? (The moves I (3k) would have chosen...) dnerra: How about discussing W60 a little before we play? One thing I wonder is whether the W 'c', B 'd' exchange would be good for white. (It prevents the sequence starting with B 'e' that Arno has discussed -- it would steal the white territory on the right and create a extremely bad cutting point. The natural flow would be to continue with W 'g', B 'h'. But once the Black group in the center is settled, this would mean that the influence of the white wall might get wasted. I would like to play at 'h' instead, and hope that the white group in the top right can still make life with s.th. like W 'i', B 'k', W 'l'. But it still looks like a bad overplay, and so I didn't quite dare playing it...
DJ What about d as an alternative to c? dnerra: As for the aji of Black at 'e', I think Lucky has clarified this a bit. With respect to you sequence starting at Wd -- I think after Wd, Bc, Wm, Black would play at 'e' himself -- let's look at this in NYSR 2002 move 60 White underneath. About Black playing 'h' -- yes, it should rather be the opponent than us to worry about our wall, but on the other hand, a move like Black 'h' is just about ideal to devalue the effect of the white wall... JoeSeki Okay this comment confused the heck out of me. Probably because I don't understand how to use thickness properly. It was my understanding that you don't use a wall to make territory in front of it. A wall or thickenss makes territory by attacking a group. Thus running black into the wall is a good thing. It uses the wall properly. Territory for white should develop naturally from the resulting attack. The real question to be asked is: Where is this territory going to happen for white? Chase black in such a way as to make that happen. So where is the developable area for white? I think it's in the lower middle or bottom side. Is my thinking all wrong here? Shouldn't White be using that wall, and love to see black rushing head long at it? As black bounces off the wall white steers the floundering stones in such a way as to develop another attack (splitting) or take territory. If I don't even have this concept right, I'll never get stronger :) Arno: I don't think that white can use her wall for attack right now. Sure, black should be careful in its presence, but right here, white should use the wall to build territory. Do you really think that white can chase black effectively? Black has rescue stones at the top and at the bottom, and white can block the way only in one direction. Building thickness and influence is nice, but there comes a point where you have to "cash in" on your influence and make it territory. Most of the time this is done during attacking another group. Here, white caps (=attacks) black from the center, thus building territory in front of the wall and cashing in. Draw an imaginary line from the upper border of white's wall to 'h' to the lower border. If white can enclose this much territory, she makes 40+ points in the center. Can you show me another attack strategy that allows white to potentially gain that many points? I don't see any. If you think of white's wall not in terms of thickness, but in terms of a moyo, you will agree that extending one's moyo while attacking i very beneficial. That's exactly the case here. Of course, white has to keep an eye on her weak groups on the right side as well, otherwise Go would be too easy a game ;o) dnerra: Oops, now Arno already posted a good comment while I was editing the page, too... Anyway, I think Arno's and my explanation may well add to another, so here is what I was gonna say: I think you got the concept right! It's all about details, just too unfortunate they are so important... :-) I think I explained a bit badly. Let's rephrase it a little: The exchange Whiteat 'g', Black at 'h' feels a little like pushing from behind. The point 'g' is pretty neutral, while 'h' is useful for both sides. (And if we are attacking, it should be the other way round! We should play useful moves, while the opponent is running away on neutral ground...) The question is: If there is no effective attack against the black center group after W 'h', B 'g', then the white wall is wasted. So it is all about how weak the black center group is after the attack. My comment above assumed that Black isn't very weak after Black 'h' anymore. This is certainly disputable. (Note also that the white wall isn't that magnificient either. There is a peep at 's' and a cut at 't'.) And about walls and not making territory with them: Don't forget you are allowed to create moyos with your walls. And walls do like to have extensions. The worst that can happen to a wall is a not too close and unattackable opponent group sitting in front of it. Lucky: Arno and dnerra explained wonderfully the situation. It is not always good to chase an enemy group in your zone of influence. If the group is not weak enough you won't be able to gain anything. It's like running the opponent in a leader that doesn't work, although he is in atari at every move it's you who lose more. I think this is the case here. Hint :) The upper right side white group is quite weak, white should strengthen it before playing 'h'. A leaning attach against the upper right black teritory is called for. White must keep for a while the option to play 'g', depending of the attack's result. Warranty :) This is only my evaluation and in no way can be considered absolutely correct. I already decided for a move but any other idea might be better. unkx80 B59: This seems to be the natural flow of the stones, no? I wanted to play at b, but that seems to be an overplay given the white wall on the left. AvatarDJFlux W58: No choice here either, I believe... JoeSeki B57: Black clearly needs to escape. When a group of stones is touching a single stone, then treat the single stone lightly or treat it as group vs group. The simple rule I've heard is group vs group, if weaker extend, if stronger hane. I think we should extend. I considered a one point jump here, but I'll go with the rule of thumb on this one. W56: I don't think there is a choice here. --dnerra B55: Looks like the obvious move to me. I don't think we should allow white to capture that stone. --unkx80 B53: Stone vs Stone -- If weaker then hane, if stronger then extend. There are 3 ways to extend here: up, down, back. JoeSeki W52 White has to invade on the right to keep the ballance. I think W50 should be at a, which is almost sente. To play now in the upper left corner is too small. Lucky
B51 Black lives. DaveSigaty
dnerra: W50 JoeSeki Black has about 50 on the board probably less, White has about 40. White is much thicker. Lucky: W46 - Yes, black has more teritory. But at this stage of the game go is not only about teritory, it is also about power. The one who has more thickness will expand his teritories during yose. How many points do you think black is ahead? ChessWhiz: Hmm... maybe 25 points? Lucky: Well, it's correct only if you don't count any point for the white wall. So the game is closer than that and depends on how white will use his thickness. ChessWhiz: Very true. Lucky: It is a very good idea to leave weaknesses in the black wall before living but you should see if it works first. See NewYearSRengo2002 B45 variation. JoeSeki: I was thinking of cutting at "a" for B45, white's wall is way too nice the way the game went. I was trying to put holes in it and cut it up before living. Black looks stronger in this fight. So I must have misread how white will play. Playing white 6 at "a" doesn't seem any better for white to me. But then again this is how I lose my games :) Kill big groups to win, or end up with nothing -- clearly I'm doing something wrong but can't figure out what :) Probably can best be described as "I'm a strong fighter but pick unreasonable fights" :) Does anyone know how to teach me to get over this hurdle? dnerra: Assuming you have read "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go", I suggest reading "Attack and Defense". Do you know that one? The book teaches very well how to benefit while attacking (indirect attacks, leaning attacks etc.) -- I found it very helpful!
ChessWhiz: B 45 - Strengthening the low black group. IMHO, as long as this group lives, black has a good game due to his extra territory. As Arno pointed out, white doesn't have much territory right now. Lucky: W44 - White doesn't try to kill any black stones (unless black leaves them to die). If black lives on the second line then white should try to make a strong wall and the result would be better for him. JoeSeki: B43 - So far the direction of play is as I thought it would be. White did not cleanly capture the lower black stones, and is risking the top white stones. The battle that results from black trying to get out, should capture something and then black is settled on the side. If white lets black run out through the center then whites top stones come under attack. The real problem though is this. With all the attacking going on, where's the territory? I think this is my fundamental problem in getting stronger. I win my games by big kills, if nothing dies, I have no territory. Arno: does white have any territory at all apart from the lower left corner? Looks to me like white has a tough game before her.
For example, W has no territory on the right side. The sequence 1-5 (connecting with a monkey jump) demonstartes this. One could go as far and call this group a weak? group.
I think the lower right corner is why W is behind currently. She invested too many stones, yet her stones are not secure.
Lucky: W40 - Obvious answer :) Arno: W38 - When in doubt, cut. It seems W can capture some stones (which secures her position somewhat), while B has to make life for his own. Of course, W's 2 stones in the upper left are in danger too, but I think W should be able to dodge a black assault there. We will see ... JoeSeki: I started this mess, I might as well see it through. Lucky: Well, I think black 35 IS an overplay. And I don't need to play below B33 so the ladder has no relevance.
JoeSeki: I hope this isn't an overplay, but I don't think white can cut safely. That ladder doesn't work
dnerra: W32. I thought about 'a' as an alternative, but ended up choosing the normal move.
DJ W30 I'm not sure I understand you, HolIgor!... ;-) HolIgor: To make things moving let me play black here as the Ongoing game 2 approaches to its logical finish. I will be black here. Please, report if anybody wants to help me. As the play tends to stop from time to time let us chose two dummies for the game. One for white and one for black. It would be better if the strength of these players were not very different. The dummies are incouraged to do any move they like if there is no contribution from other players in 48 hours. The moves by dummies can be retracted by any of the players but before the next move by the player of the same color. I can be a dummy for black.
AvatarDJFlux W28: Stymulus, response, stymulus, response... JamesA: B27 - let's see how white reacts to this... Nonny: (exhorting): Calling all players for black back to this game, please! HolIgor (commenting): In my opinion two most remarkable features of the positon are weakness of the white group at the top and thinness of the black stone on the right side. If black could combine an attack at the top with some thickness at the right then black would be doing alright. dnerra: Let's have a look at e. One possibility is the sequence:
And white gets an extension similar to the one you mentioned. If Black does not like that (I wouldn't!), he can instead of B2 play at -- well, I'd say at 3. B4 instead would, I think, lead to the same result as in the diagram after W cross-cuts at 3. Nonny: Locally, b looks best to me. This game is very low--there are so few stones above the third line thus far. Also, d seems a line too high for white here--g aims at an incursion into black's moyo and there is no black response that doesn't overconcentrate black without strengthening white. White f certainly is possible but to what effect? The thought of starting with the probe at e is quite interesting. Then, f or thereabouts as an extension makes sense later. However, who says that Black will block the corner at h? It seems equally likely that Black will attach at i and after the corner is decided, make a one space jump out to j. dnerra: W 26. Locally, what is best -- W26, a, b or c? What is bigger, W26 or d? Is e a good probe, or is it aji keshi? Is W f an option? So many questions, I don't know any answer, a good reason just to pick a move :) Nonny: B25. Compare white here. IronChefSakai: B23- I couldn't stand it, that move was just nagging me. I didn't want to lose Sente, and it seems like a big play. I think it is good to avoid contact plays this early on.
AvatarDJFlux W22 All Ye White Players! Please forgive me! Of course, It may as well be the wrong kikashi at the wrong time... DaveSigaty: B21 accepting the corner. I think that W has to settle too many areas to be happy here.
HolIgor: The game reached an interesting stage when black should decide if giving white the upper left corner is a good idea. Or if taking that corner with small life is better. It is not clear also if black agrees to tollerate white's move to the left of 'z'. Personally I would give the UL corner to white. But how? A simple jump to the center? Or maybe tsuke one point bellow 10? Or kata at 'y'? dnerra: W20 -- we are not getting nervous about the lower right group, are we? :-) JamesA: I don't think 17 should have been played at the bottom. Black and white have stones on the third line here making it hard for either to make much territory. How would 17 have been played as wariuchi one point to the left of 18? Or should 17 have been played in the top left to prevent a white framework here? Also, I can't help but feel that black 11 would be better placed on the fourth line somewhere, or even at 'z'. MikeNoGo B19: Mokuhazushi looks like a good place to start an invasion of the upper left.
AvatarDJFlux B18: Well well well... I'll follow the proverb: "Big points before urgent ones"! (Oops.. or was it the other way round?!?) MikeNoGo : Despite your kind invitation, I decided to play an Oogeima on the star point. I think it's a nice extension for the black group on the bottom and being on the 4th line gives a nice influence towards the center, for what it's worth. Bill: Well, for one thing, it prevents a White extension at d, aiming at Black's weakness in the corner. :-) dnerra: W16 -- cordially inviting Black into the upper left corner :-). JamesA: Black 15 looks essential to me; it makes the black group safe, takes the corner territory, and most importantly weakens the white group above. I think white is starting to get into a difficult position.... Bill: W 14 is perhaps premature, as it eliminates the possibility of the crosscut at c or the nidanbane at 15. However, it may be considered a probe to see Black's response. White was willing to throw her two marked stones away, if need be. In that case, the exchange of W 12 and 14 for B 13 and 15 is no problem. After B 15 Black has weaknesses between his 2 squared stones. HolIgor: Black has a handful of suitable moves in the lower right corner. The quesition is, however, if white would reply? Just to remind the players that the clock is ticking. AvatarDJFlux: Hear, hear! Black players, where art thou??!? AvatarDJFlux W14: At this point is there any other move? By the way, I've read in some joseki books that B3 is slack and not considered joseki: B should have played 3 at 4... It is also true that B has played both B11 AND the squared stone! ;-) Bill: Without the extension of B 11, joseki is for Black to answer W 12 with B 14 and connect to the circled stone while sacrificing the left-most squared stone. Doing so after B 11 would make B 11 inefficient. Unkx80's hane at B 13 is correct. :-) TakeNGive: Having already chosen a sub-optimal move for Black, I won't do it; but my temptation is to put Black 15 at 'a' since it looks like a juicy spot for White to cause trouble. But I don't like being so thoroughly in gote. Is 'b' playable? JamesA: I think black should play at 'c', if he plays in this area (which I think he probably should...).
JamesA: I just wanted to know people's opinion on a question that arose earlier. If black 9 had been played in the top left corner to prevent a shimari, as I understood the dan players to be suggesting, would it be good for white to play around the middle star point at the bottom, threatening to create a development in the bottom right similar to the diagram entitled 'better for white? Or should white play a move in the top left?
(JamesA added a new page - Opening in New Years Rengo - to analyze this question in more depth. --DaveSigaty)
Bill: Your question is hard to answer in general terms. If B 9 is a kakari in the top left corner, whether the 3-3, komoku, or takamoku, White may or may not reply. As a rule, the extension on a side is not as good as keeping Black separated in the bottom right corner. However, if Black does connect and White makes a wall, that wall would work well with the extension on the side. It's an interesting idea, a good example of whole board thinking?. :-) OC, you should expect that Black will not make that response. ;-)
This looks like a typical development.
unkx80 (B13): I made a move, finally. :-) Bill (W 12): I don't think this is a bad time for this play. :-) JamesA: Isn't Black 11 too easy on white? Black has already made a stable position on the lower side and I think a strong attack should be made on the two white stones. I think white can force with a and b (in diagram 'A') before playing in the top left to make a second shimari. Won't this be fine for white?. I think black should have played at c, white d, then at e to build a large framework whilst attacking. Thoughts from the dan players? Bill: If B c - W d is heavy. Better to tenuki. :-) Besides, White still has f for easy sabaki. B 9 and 11 both give White some elbow room.
TakeNGive (10k): Black 11; considered 'a' through 'd' before choosing 11, which seems patient. There's still aji in the corner for White, but i think Black can profitably harass the two floating stones. (Maybe better at 'e'?)
Bill: If, mindful of the weakness at a if he plays at 2, Black threatens to connect with B 1, I think that W 2 - B 3 is a nice touch. Black can still connect, but has to do so at b. :-)
Also, White later has the possibility of W c followed by W b, making light shape.
Bill: When would White like to play at b? After W 10? Which diagram? Do you mean the shimari in the top left corner? How about W f or g? :-) AvatarDJFlux, W 10: well, after having read Dave's extensive analysis it looks to me as if White has already a steep uphill game... ;-) Nevertheless, I have a feeling that she has to add a stone in the LR before doing something like d in the US (the other option I fancied for move 10) JamesA, B 9: I don't think black should attack the white stone too directly yet, I like steady moves like this. Or is it just a bad move? Any comments? Bill: It's certainly not a bad move. :-) But Black has a net of 2 stones in the bottom right. Is Black's position there as good as a shimari? No? Then how about preventing White's shimari in the top left? Also, because of W 4, B 9 has limited prospects. Maybe another local play is better. unkx80: Locally, is black 9 at a better? Bill: The book moves are a and b, right? JamesA: If black plays 'b' here I was worried that 'c' would become a good play for white later on. If black 'a' can't white play this:
... leaving black a bit too concentrated on the right side? What do people think?
DaveSigaty: I think that B 1 here is too good a point for W to bear. If W does not answer, B attacks the whole group with something like 'a'. If W tries to hane at 'b', B cuts immediately at 2. I think that W has no choice but to submit with 2 after which B moves out quickly with 3. While it is true that B is building from the right side, he is not over-concentrated there.
After 3, B has played two more moves than W in the lower right. If W next makes shimari in the upper left, each side will be two moves ahead in two corners and B will have sente. I think the question is whether W is better off to have played in the lower right and then tenuki'd rather than going directly for a double shimari game. Since W's position is still subject to attack around 'c' I think that W's plan would not work well here. On the other hand, I also doubt that W stands better if she uses another play at the bottom and allows B to play against the upper left first. B will then have the opportunity to choose how to best develop the right side framework.
Bill: B 5 is too good for Black. Better play for White:
Now Black can play wariuchi on the bottom side. Black's marked stone is a bit passive, so I think that B 1 should not be played too early in the game.
(More can be said, here, but I do not want to influence the next few plays. If there are any. ;-))
BillSpight: In the old days, games could take months. Same here. ;-) DaveSigaty: With 7 I violated the instruction to play one move since I don't think that we have 200 contributors yet! Let's make it a true New Years game.
AvatarDJFlux May I say Happy New Year everybody even if it is Jan 9th? B 5: because this is what I usually play in this situation, and I want to see how sensei handle it. I'm with the Blacks. Happy SL2 to all! --Stefan HolIgor (a presenter): There was once a statement on rec.games.go that the side that builds two shimari wins easily. The databases were searched and 4 games were found. In all 4 games the two shimari side lost. So, the urgent question of the moment is whether white would allow black to form a second shimari. Other options for white are to form a shimari of her own or to split the right side. One mokuhazushi deserves another. W 4. --BillSpight In consideration of all the Hikaru no Go Junkies out there I continued with the quite traditional B 3 -- DaveSigaty Whee! I made the first move! --BlueWyvern This is a copy of the living page "New Year's Rengo 2002" at Sensei's Library. (C) the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0. |