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TeachingGame53
WhenToTenuki

 

TG53 1 to 70
   

Moves 61-70

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

mat B60: Thanks for your analysis of the corner, it now causes me really a big headache when I look back at B42 and B50. I considered the following hane underneath when I played B48, but due to an error in reading it out I got afraid of it.... what a pity! B60 seems natural to me, I considered 'a' as well - as it seems to secure the corner, but I was afraid of W60, Wb and Wc. I suppose you will go for the 3/3 invasion next, but at least I will be able to build a wall underneath you.

Dave W61: W59 is unlikely to make sense if I follow up with a 3-3 play. When W enters at 3-3, one of the points is to try to use defects in B's position to make forcing moves that build some kind of shape. W59 "forces" B to patch the gap in his 1-space jump. In most situations (maybe this one too :-) it is a "thank-you" move that B is happy to answer. It can only make sense together with other W plays on the outside.

mat B62: 'd' may be natural, but if I continue just to defend I will lose the game, so here's my next experiment

Dave I am interested in your assertion that you will lose the game if you continue to defend. How do you assess the score at present? Where are the big moves threatened for both B and W? TG53 After W61

Dave W63: this is supposed to be a teaching game so I choose to set you a problem with this rather vague 63. Whatever you choose in turn for 64, I am interested in your thoughts behind it.

mat B64: Isn't this miai? I threat to either capture W61 or to connect to the marked stone. This plan may be overplay in the view of my strength but I feel that the komi is nearly reached with my losses in the upper left.

mat OK, now I've just seen "TG53 after W61". (Probably I should have waited with B64 and see if defending is better. Anyway I do not withdraw a move and will spend some time for your question now)

Dave W65 I will respond to your move before looking at TG53 after W61 :-) Your 62 and 64 look too thick to fool around with. I have to strengthen my framework. It is worth considering what W would have done if you had played 64 at 65. It looks like I would have been unable to stop you from breaking into the upper side. W63 may have been a mistake on my part.

mat B66 I am happy to hear that you wont 'fool around' ;-)

Dave W67 This seems inevitable...

mat Let's make things complicated...

Dave OK!

mat Hey, why don't you do what I think you are going to do? Maybe I need a new plan ;-) However, B70 was obvious...

Dave The trouble with expectations in Go is how often our opponents are so incosiderate as to play other moves entirely. In a related way, "inevitable" and "obvious" moves may not be. Your B68 was something that I had not considered when I carelessly played W67. My inevitable move might have been better one space to the left. W69 is a kind of yosu miru move. When you answer at B70 you take away one liberty of my lower center group (clearly a minus for me). But at the same time you leave behind a cutting point at "e" which I may be able to exploit later. This obvious move may not have been best. The right side territory that you protect is smaller than my center that you would like to break up.


Moves 51-60

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

Dave W51 Let us see what you make of this.

mat I hope that works...

Dave Funny, I am hoping the same thing about mine :-)

mat OK, B 50 might have been wrong. However I'm not going to die!

Dave Let's settle things a bit and then take a look back at the corner. W55

mat B 56 can't be wrong.

Dave W 57: unfortunately 56 is almost certainly wrong. B has been tricked here (or has tricked himself). W57 is very big; W has blocked on both sides and the corner is not alive yet.

mat Hmmm, I thought I made my mistake earlier... If I had played 57, you could have enclosed me below and instead taken the upper two stones. Is that a big difference? Anyway: B58

Dave Let's go back and look at how the corner played out: TG53 Upper Left.

Dave W59, the upper left has stabilized and W has sente. Kitani Minoru's teacher, Kubomatsu, used this maneuver against a B one-space jump to expand his moyo in a 3-stone game played when Kitani was 13 years old. I have always wanted to try it :-)


Moves 41-50

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

Dave, if this game would be continued by two players of equal strength (and with normal komi), white would win, wouldn't she? At what time has black lost the advantage of her two stones? mat

Probably it might be instructive for me if you (or anybody else) could give a short analysis of the current situation. I find it very difficult to learn when action and feedback (in terms of territory/life outcome) are separated by lots of moves mat

Dave: OK let's look at the situation - TG53 After Black 40.

Dave: Meanwhile back at the game... W41 (too blunt for a teaching game?)

mat: B42 (Initially I was aiming at the outside, let's see if I will get there in the end...)

dnerra: Is it allowed to kibitz a little? Here at W42 I would almost automatically play at 'c'. I don't like to be shut in! And if white does try to keep black in after B 'c', he would get horribly cutting points (imagine W 'd', then Black can choose among B9 or B 43; of course, white might reply at W43 himself; then black should still get better shape than white with a hane at either head of the 2 stones). But maybe B42 is a good alternative to make life quickly? Say, B42 is to make life, B 'c' would have been to make shape?
mat I'm bad at fighting, so I don't know if those cutting points were valuable to me. I thought that if I lost the contact to the corner, I might have to worry about life for the next 10 moves which would give white the opportunity to direct my whereever she wants. Let's hope I can escape with B 48...

Dave: W43 OK, let's see what I can do to prevent it :-)

mat B44 you must have expected this...

Dave W45 it was the most likely...

mat B46 so was mine... See you in two days, I'm leaving for a short trip!

Dave In a position like this you should also consider playing 46 at "a" or "b". If B wants to push downward from the corner, the cutting point at "b" in the game is a problem. W 47, W closes the open skirt at the top.

mat But 'a' is gote - can I afford this? (I am willing to sacrifice 46 and 44 if I can break through to the lower side)
Dave If W plays 6 and then tenuki after B connects, B is happy to capture 1 stone. The second time W has no choice but to connect so B is absolutely alive in the corner and it is his turn. Normally this type of hanging connection is sente. This is one such case, W can't really afford to tenuki.

mat B48 Hmmm, I'm in an advanterous mood today. I can't read it out to the end, but I feel that the possibility to connect either near the border or to help a breakthrough in the center is a good thing (miai?). Do you go to 'f'? I think 'g' is a good response to 'f'. Probably you will go to 9 - then 'f' maybe my response.

It is interesting to play that way. The second time I look at a situation I change my mind very often!

Me too. It is often disappointing how much we do not see/think about in a normal game!

Dave I will try W49

mat B50 (as announced)


Moves 31-40

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

W 31 - Good luck! You may be trying too hard here (then again I may die :-) That's all for me today so read it out at your leisure. Dave

B 32 - Do I have a choice? I don't want you to cut at 'a' with atari, so I can't let you get B32, so I have to get it instead. I am weak at reading (the other player often chooses moves I didn't think of) so I like this sort of "mental shortcuts"...

I think you will continue with 'b' and so far I think I go on with 'c'

Unfortunately I will not have internet access during a journey that I start tomorrow. Maybe we manage one more move until I leave, then there is a break of 2 weeks. Sorry for that, I'm looking forward to continue.

Bill: Mat, that's twice already that you have indicated a lack of choice for your move. I suspect that your game would benefit from considering more choices for your plays. Even if a move looks obvious, you may profit from asking yourself where else you might play, both locally and over the whole board. :-)
mat: Thanks, bill, any advise is appreciated, I want to learn. However I don't know how to make use of this advise. You think I should consider tenuki more often? I remember that I made tenuki (other games) in situations where I shouldn't, so this is not a systematical error rather than a lack of insight. Can you name some principles upon to judge when to respond and when to tenuki?
As to the local alternatives: I thought about them, however my mind got somehow screwed up by trying to read out to the end. I don't know if I'm too lazy, probably I just need some more intuition (based on experience)? (I'm not bad at intuition outside of go).
Bill: Well, if you thought about alternatives, I guess I read too much into your remarks. :-) But in general, it seems to me that kyu players often miss good plays because they didn't even see them. They did not think about throwing stones away, they did not look for dual-purpose plays, they did not consider the whole board.
As for tenuki, I say, when in doubt, tenuki. Sure, you will make mistakes, but when in doubt, you are going to make mistakes anyway. The reason for my advice is psychological. Most people, myself included, tend to get overly involved in the local situation. To the extent that I have been able to find errors by pros, failing to tenuki is a common one. Even they are not immune. Besides, if tenuki is wrong, the refutation is likely to be impressive, whereas, if it is not, then the refutation just looks like the next big play, and the error may go unnoticed.

W 33 - I will play toward the corner. I am a little busy tonight with the family so I may not be able to play again if you answer. Why don't we stop here and you can take the situation away with you on your trip, think it over, and decide what looks good to you next? There is no hurry. See you when you get back. Dave

B 34 - I will defend the corner (internet is everywhere!) I think I might be able to stop you somehow if you go further up, so the lower side might be more important...

W 35 - I will descend here, I think it keeps more options open for me. Dave

B 36 - OK, tenuki (I'm home again) mat

W 37: Welcome back mat! How was the trip? Dave

thanks, the trip was great, we visited friends in the south of france who own a vineyard and a castle.

B 38: In this phase of the game I usually start to guess a lot. Should I have tried to connect 36 with other black stones on the right? should I make an invasion into the upper left corner / upper side? I don't know really how to judge the value of those moves...

Dave: Judging the value of the moves at this stage is pretty much a matter of imagining a continuation and considering who will end up controlling what parts of the board. This is not easy to do well. Study can teach you something about what are reasonable expectations. Experience playing games will do the same. There are different opinions on how much you should plan in the opening. I believe that you have to become good at setting some kind of appropriate plan for yourself. At the same time you must begin to look for and understand the plans your opponent is trying to put in place against you. How long any particular plan survives depends a great deal on how your opponent reactes. After your opponent responds to each move that you make, you should be considering whether your plan is still valid. Has the response frustrated any of the goals that you had? Did the response leave weaknesses in your opponent's position that allow you to make a more aggressive plan? Has your opponent aimed at weaknesses in your position that are more urgent than your original plan so that you have to back off (at least for now)?

W 39: I receive you from the outside. What plan do you have or what plan will you create :-)

B 40: I've wanted to play in your corner for some time. I can't see if 'd' or 'e' is better. I decided to go for the outside since that may work with B38 and B36 (although I have no precise idea how). All I try to do here is to destroy some of your territory...


[Diagram]
Diag.: Shape?

What do you think about the exchange in the bottom? Black is overconcentrated on the left, has peeped at a bamboo joint and even tried to cut it. As for White, he has made an empty triangle.
Real fights involve trade-offs. How do you assess these? -- Bill

mat: But I made tradeoffs - I gave white the corner while I built a wall around. I let the invading white stone have acces to the middle while I built a wall between the white "bamboo joint" and my moyo on the right. These tradeoffs seem reasonable for black. What else could I have achieved locally? Shall I thread to catch white in the middle? I doubt that this will work (I still can try later)
Another problem: A point that is big for you may not be big for me - I simply do not know enough about how to make use of moyos. Once a 1k player told me I'd play like "lucky jack" (title of a famous german story: jack is a foolish (but happy) young man who makes subsequent exchanges that finally end up with nothing). So I decided to stick to my strategy and go less for exchanges.
according to shape: what is so bad with the peeped bamboo? white's concentration is as high as black's - but - black is outside! Isn't that good?
Bill: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had not made tradeoffs. :-) I intended to refer to the tradeoffs in shape. Each player made bad shape in the fight.

[Diagram]
Diag.: Better Black Shape

Instead of peeping and trying to cut a bamboo joint, the keima (marked) extends into the center and threatens White's group. White still has the empty triangle.
Both of these diagrams have the same net number of stones. Which is better for Black?

mat: computers are everywhere in the world, so here I am again... Bill, I think I must learn something from your shape-discussion, however I don't get the point: if I hadn't played B16, white would never have developed a bamboo joint, so why can I learn from your diagram?
Bill: At the time I said that B16 was dubious. So was B20. Shape provides a heuristic for judging the results.

Moves 21-30

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

W 21 - I will connect. However, you need not continue as below if you have changed your mind in the mean time (although it may speed things up it may also defeat the purpose of a teaching game). Dave (ps: Bill, I didn't have the nerve to claim the generic "Dave" for my very own. But since you did it for me what can I do except accept, thanks :-)

OK, I changed my mind. Normally I try not to follow the hints of others (although I read them carefully), since I want to learn rather than win. But B22 is "my" move. I may have chosen it anyway. Looking at the stones on the board is different from thinking over it ;-) However I think it is good for a teaching game to say what I have planned. So: I think you will connect at a (3) and I think I will connect at b (4). I'm a bit afraid of your possibility to move at b (4), I can't overlook what will happen then (probably I'd go to 'c')

W 23, B 24, W 25 - OK, let's play it out and see what happens. I will continue by attaching at 25 to see how you will react in teh corner. Dave

B 26 - I'm weak at josekis but that looks reasonable...

W 27 - One continuation

B 28 -

W 29 ...

W 30 ...


Moves 11-20

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

W 11 - I chose tengen partly as one of the key points between the W and B moyos under construction. However, I am also thinking about the usefulness in supressing/invading B's right and bottom as mentioned on IGS 5k Against Low Chinese.

B 12 - OK, I'll try to play wider. B 12 is good for both wings and as far as I can judge, it somehow makes B10 look better. Furthermore, it should help me in the center, too. I thought about playing (a) as it attacks white and makes my influence better, but I wasn't so sure if it would really be sente, so I chose B12 (B12 isn't sente either, but I feel that it is bigger)

I think 12 is an nice idea ('b' might be even nicer :-) I rate it B's best move of the game so far. After W 11 'a' is less interesting than before. I would probably answer but the benefit to B from the exchange would be more or less erased by 11.
unkx80: Personally, I would play 12 at k. I view 11 and k as some sort of miai.
JamesA: I don't think I would play B12 either. B10 was a relatively solid extension, but developing on a smaller scale than white. B12 continues to play in a moyo-competition style, and white gets the chance to reduce first. What about a play at 'z', for instance, to reduce white lightly whilst thinking about an invasion at 'y' or in the corner later? I certainly think black needs to take the initiative after W11.

W 13 - Let's see what you do with this. Of course I am trying to punish B 10 and the availability of the shoulder hit is one of the things that I didn't like about it. Dave

mat: You call it my best move so far? Is there a problem with B2 to B8? Well, I'm glad you liked B12.

Not a problem but there is no original thinking there = unrated! :-)

B 14 - I don't have much choice, have I? I'm not "brave" enough to tenuki and 'c' might give you the opportunity to push against my moyo in the lower left and at the same time locking up your huge moyo, so B 14 is the only move I can think of.

One problem is that 14 is overconcentrated in relation to B 4.
Bill: Indeed. One of the joys of the close extension is that you do not have to respond at B 14. :-)
Some alternative plays: c, 10, h, i. :-)

W 15 - trying to play quickly and lightly, looking at the center or the bottom depending on how you play. By the way, if I had played at 16, what would you have played? Dave

B 16 - OK, I will try to cut. To be honest, I don't know what I would have answered to W16, probably tenuki (when in doubt...) Is my overconcentration result of B10 or could I have played B14 elsewhere?

I think that a play around 'e' would have been an interesting idea against W16. I would have made myself a little heavy and you could expect to push into my moyo if I try to run. On the other hand you could solidify the right side if I had to live along the bottom. I think that a play around 'd' was worth considering against W13 originally or even an immediate cap around 'e'. B should not mind having W push against B10 (either along the top at 14 or downward at 'c' since there is no good way for B to develop this stone anyway. Dave
Bill: How about B 16 at e? Compare B 16 and B 18 with W 17 and W 19. Which stones are working? :-)
dnerra: Hmm, When to tenuki? I don't think you should have tenukied if Black plays B15 at 16. Sure, the two white stones can't be attack very efficiently, but simply allowing them to get a base looks to modest. Maybe something like B at p or q would be fine? If white doesn't respond, I don't think he can treat the two stones lightly if you attack them with black e. But then, I also agree that a tenuki to enter the top left somewhere around k would be an option, it's such a big play!

B 18 - as expected

W 19 - The normal solid connection would leave behind a B splitting play at 'e'. This 19 looks at the relationship with the stone on tengen. (It is bed time in Tokyo, you can choose your next play at your leisure. CU tomorrow!) Dave

B 20 - If you connect, I might play at f

unkx80: I would rather play at f directly, if I were you. Alternatively, g might be a better choice. =)
mat Hmmm, isn't 'f' gote? But the longer I think over it - g looks better, indeed. (However, it's too late...)
Bill: How about the peep at j?
mat: You mean B22 at 'j'? I thought over it, too and maybe I will change my mind ;-) But initially I havn't planned to continue with B22 at 'j' as it is sente (White could go between B22 and B20)
Bill: No, I meant B 20 at j. :-)



Moves 1-10

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

I start with 1 at mokuhazushi. It is an asymmetric move. In a two-stone game I expect that you will want to play first in the open corner so that I will then have the choice of playing again to exploit my first move. Dave

Hmm I've never played with that much komi. I think I should play just a little bit more defensive to make advantage of it - just as I would have done with more stones. I can't think of any more specific strategy right now (perhaps later). I have just read your page about mokuhazushi ... Anyway - as expected: I



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