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Teaching Game 67
PageType: OngoingGame     Keywords: Problem, Question, Proverb

This is a Teaching Game so please add genereous comments. Anyone can a question or kibitz. It makes for a good learning experience (and nice reading material for others). Hopefully we see some dan level player with their kibitzes here as well


[Diagram]
Diag.: Latest move marked

[Diagram]
Diag.: Captured stones and komi

[Diagram]
Diag.: Moves 31-40


Joeseki: Very interesting. You think 4th line and closer is more severe? I would think you could slide underneath me to get some eye space and I'd be floating. I thought the 3rd line is more severe. I considered one closer, but that would let you extend from the top right further down and I'd be just as cramped. I never know how to attack properly. Any comments from the stronger players? Any comments on other possible thought from the observers of any rank?

DJ Mmmhh... So many questions and I have very little to offer as an answer...
- Yes, R9 was Joseki, but I already said that it gave you the initiative at the top, which to me was the most important side (the left is the less interesting to me... but perhaps I'm just wrong!)
- For me it is still sort of a moyo game (I love Takemiya...). I choose thickness in the LL, so I want to be consistent. Also, I was expecting a much severer attack on my 3 stones (say around j), so I wanted to play high to offer whatever possible help to their running away... And what if somehow I manage to play first around k??!?
- As I said, I was expecting an attack at j, to punish me for not having finished the Joseki... so I am sort of grateful for R10.
Now I have to consider whether to defend my three stones by pushing you toward a strong stone of mine (the square marked) or to grab a big point from the other side (but that would mean really putting in danger my poor little stones...)

JoeSeki: W36 I can get a 2 space extension on either side. So when you approach me you have do decide do I hurt your unfinished lower right, or do I hurt your shimari. Even with all this I still feel this is where I go wrong in my games. It's obvious I need to come into the right side, and R10 seems the best point, but is there something better I should be considering? Or is it good enough?

JoeSeki: Why did you play high? Isn't my stone at E17 peaking under any potential territory you could make on the top? If you are going to play on the top I think you should play on the 3rd line. This isn't a moyo game anymore, and the 4th line is for influence, and I just don't see that happening for you here. I think a 3rd line move was a must here. Any comments from others?

JoeSeki: I would have taken R9 as my black move. Not only is it Joseki but it is also an extension from you shimari at the top. Granted it's the lesser valued extension, but it's still a dual purpose move. If I compare whites extension to L17 to blacks extension at R9. They are about the same value extension wise. The difference is that White gets in front of Blacks shimari, but Black completes a Joseki.

DJ B 35: I know, I know... The "peaceful" joseki required me to play at b, but then W would play first on top, and the thought gave me the creeps...
I believe my main defect is being stubborn: I wanted to play on the TS and I do it... Now those poor three stones in the LR will be attacked, thanks to the "peaceful" W34... ;-)
Really, W32 was brill, and put me in a dire spot.
I wanted to play a slow, quiet game, and now I'm in for a though fight. That's the story of many a game of mine...
I thought: but would it be really that terrible if I played b and let W play at 35 or one point above? Where could I play afterwards? I would perceive my RS flat and invadable, and I would feel compelled to force at c and then extend somewhere around d. Gone is the Kikashi at e. I didn't like such situation...

Joeseki W 34: Peaceful move by me with a lot of potential for later.

DJ B 33: I too wanted sente to play at the top but I forgot you had the option to play at 32... :-(
It seems I have no other move than this. Tout ça c'est pénible!

JoeSeki W32 Trying to take sente. If I had dropped down rather then close the gap, you could treat these stones as light and play elsewhere. Even if you didn't treat them light and completed the associated joseki, you'd have an open skirt on the right but you'd also have sente. I want to be first to play at the top.

JoeSeki said: "...I'll take the profit. I think if I had black I would have played at the 3-3 point and take the profit away from white. Any outside influence white gets won't be that beneficial I think.

DJ B 31: Indeed I was considering taking profit myself, not by entering at SanSan but playing at the marked W stone. You would have pressed and so on.
My problem was: is it correct to let you build thickness in face of my thickness?
It is true that that way the LR corner would balance the LL one, and the LS would be played out, almost settled for the time being. Not only that, now you have more territory than me...
Well, I just don't know: strong players, any hint?
The strategy (what a big word for a 3 kyu...) I have devised focuses on other areas, though...

JoeSeki I hope a high Dan player will make some comments about our direction of play when it's appropriate. I'd hate to think this is a case of "The blind leading the blind"

dnerra: Hmm, I am not sure about the result after black enters at the square-marked stone instead of B29. If white presses with the usual knight jump, and black chooses the usual joseki, we have a white wall facing black thickness. But white is first to get an extension, so this favors white a little.

On the other hand, black is really thick, while the white wall does have some weaknesses, so this is a plus for black. Then there is the right side. Black is in danger of getting pressed further, which is probably bad in relation to his shimari in the upper side. So white will get sente at the top, or get compensation on the right side. It looks playable for both. Someone else to comment? (Yes I know, I should add a diagram here, maybe I can do that tomorrow.)

JamesA: Really interesting game! B29 is a difficult move to decide upon. How about playing 1 below, to extend from the top right shimari. Then, if white makes a shimari in the bottom right black gets a fantastic move at 'm' - preventing white's extension and also creating a double wing enclosure.

[Diagram]
Diag.: Alternative for B29

However, looking at this position I think black may have a difficult game (white has sente), so 3-3 may be the way to go (black gets territory and white's thickness isn't too valuable because of black's opposing thickness). The problem is that white has quite a bit of territory already and his stone on 3-5 in the bottom left makes it difficult for black to get compensation with his thickness. I'm worried about the territorial balance for black after W28.

After the actual B29 and the following joseki it is very hard to find a good move for B35.


[Diagram]
Diag.: Moves 21-30

JoeSeki W30 nothing else even looks good. I'll take the profit. I think if I had black I would have played at the 3-3 point and take the profit away from white. Any outside influence white gets won't be that beneficial I think.

DJ B 29: Ouff!!! I agonised a lot on this move...
I considered all left big points left (Oba) at j, k, m: I had really a hard time to make my mind up. For some reason I thought the LS uninteresting, and no good entering at x (White 30) just to be pressed at 29 (but maybe I am wrong in thinking this??!?).
So this is my move!
If I'll have time I'll create a page to explain in detail my reasoning for lurker's sake...

JoeSeki W28: I choose the small enclosure on the top side. I decide that with the forcing move of Black at 'a', Wb, that would be black influenced area. So I return the headache to you. :)

AvatarDJFlux: If we give each other a headache it means that the game is difficult for both: excellent! Leaving jokes aside, I perceive this fuseki as really challenging. A difficult fuseki is for me one of the most beautiful elements of Go.
Now it's my turn to ponder. I will try to play moves that flow naturally. At least, that's my intention...



[Diagram]
Diag.:

JoeSeki I considered this sequence thinking my stone in the lower right corner being on the 3-5 point might have a good relationship with my stones crawling out. Not only would I get out into the middle but I don't think the thickness you get wouldn't be worthwhile. But after thinking about it a bit longer I decided I'd rather not strengthen you this way on the lower side. If you want to stop me from getting out into the middle you'll have to take gote again anyway. So I believe (probably incorrectly ;) that the middle will be unimportant in this game, so by not giving you more thickness by forcing my way out with crude moves, I should be able to handle the lower side better. Thus, you were very insightful to play for me as you did. It is as I would have played. Thank you.

unkx80: Don't mind if I ask, why is there two move number 4s in your diagram?
DJ: Whoa! Two moves in a row!! That's not fair!!! :-)))
JoeSeki Whoops poor editing my part. I fixed the diagram so it makes sense. Now our comments here won't though.

I am back from Holiday and had a great time. I went to a gaming convention, and bought some new games to play with friends. Taught someone how to play go, and hopefully hooked them on it :) I had no time to think about my next move though. I was thinking about the sequence below and hadn't gotten around to the move I should make once I had sente.

Hmm, where is the important point to play? The top is 12 lines of seperation between a black group on the 5th line and a white stone on the 4th line. Wide and tall. The right is 11 lines between a black stone on the 3rd line and a white stone on the 5th line. The left side is betwen a white stone on the 3rd line, and something 7 spaces away. But I don't know what that will be in the middle game. Is that blackness down there or whiteness? trying to fight my way out would make it blackness.

I think the top is the biggest area. But what kind of shimari? 4th line? I don't thik so, A high stone is not called for here I believe. So 3rd line. Small or large knight shimari? Small allows me to extend a nice 2 spaces should you extend along the top. But then again the right side seems bigger then the top after my shimari. So a large night allows me to extend 2 spaces along the top even further, making any extension by on the top akward.

On the other hand, if I start to enclose both of my corners you get a double wing formation working for you. That can't be good. Tough, very tough. Or is that wrong thinking? I'd have 3 corners and could cap both extension (or invade under them if on the 4th line). I should be able to reduce such a double wing formation. Right? I think this is a turning point for white. I'll get you a move by tomorrow. I hope my rambling wasn't too incoherent.

DJ: If I managed to give my opponent a headache for choosing his next move at least my strategy has accomplished something... :-)))

DJ W26 and B27: I dare to assume that I can play for you again. W26 is pretty straightforward: in this way you can use right away your sente, which without doubt you have proficiencely studied during your holiday... ;-)))
(If you do not agree with my guess of course you can edit it!!!)

DJ B25: Yes, the drawback of this variation is that you will have sente. OTOH, I did'n want to choose a fighting variation because of those W low stones...
AFAIK, this was the only way of having a reasonable outcome in this game once you started the Nadare.
Who knows, if this kind of strategy is no good maybe my B7 at d5 was questionable in the first place...
P.S. I was forgetting: have a great 4th of July! (also to all you USA citizens out there!)

JoeSeki I think you chose wisely here. I was inviting the fight by taking the avalance joseki. My stones are poised wonderfully for a fight. Which is why I said earlier that if you were going to avoid a fight, you should have avoided the large avalanche all together and played Black 13 at 18.

JoeSeki W24: At least I end with sente, I think I'll spend some time thinking about what I'll do with it. I'm away for the July 4th weekend.

DJ W22 and B23: As per instructions of my opponent ... ;-)

DJ B21: A simple, easy to understand joseki move! ;-)



[Diagram]
Diag.: Moves 11-20


JoeSeki W20: No choice here, as anything else is just too good for black. If you atari at F3 go ahead and fill for me and play your next move.

DJ B19: Well, yes, I think so!

JoeSeki W18: Is it a one way street now?

DJ B17: Gotcha! Here we go...
I really wonder if my so-called strategy is sound or not... :-)

JoeSeki W16: Must be turning to the outside then.

DJ B15: In fact, I'm not planning to have a fight! ;-)
I maybe be wrong, but I devised a line of play to contrast your stones in the adjacent corners: at the end some stronger player will tell me whether such play is correct...
By now you should have guessed which way I'll turn!
BTW, if I played C7 you would have made too good a shape on the LS (which was your plan in the beginning...) so I didn't want to co-operate!!!

JoeSeki W14: Did you consider C7 for B13? With White having both corners low and ready for a fight, it doesn't seem like you should be looking for a fight here. C7 is probably better than going with the avalanche variation. Now the next three moves I think are a one way street. The question for me is, do you turn in or out?

DJ B13: I think that both small and large avalanche have so many variations that can develop toward almost anything and any direction... Let's try to steer the joseki in the direction we think positive for our goals - whether or not we have a clear goal in mind! ;-)
So: LargeAvalanche! Be it! (And may the force be with you...)

JoeSeki W12: I've never seen anything else but this. [1] As for Black 11 the small avalanche emphasizes the lower side, the large avalance takes territory and builds the left side. Of course I could be all wrong, these variations are a bit over my head to evaluate, let alone decide if the direction of play is correct.

DJ B11: No, I do not think there are any other possible moves but the W marked stone.
The real mess starts now... I choose the O-nadare! (my God, where are we got ourselves into...)

JoeSeki W10 (previous diagram): I've never seen any other move than this in this position. Are there any other moves possible?


[Diagram]
Diag.: Alternative.

[1] unkx80: Alternative and much simpler play for white. I believe this is joseki too?

JoeSeki But then White has 8 spaces between this group of stones and a 3rd lines stone in the lower right. That seems way too wide. With Black going next I'd say this is not the right direction of play to consider.

AvatarDJFlux: Hmmm... maybe, I do not know joseki's very much.
Still, it is W who has started the avalanche, and therefore the mess! So why should he back off from difficulties? Wouldn'it be inconsistent?
Ishida Yoshio agrees with me on this matter... ;-)))



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