![]() StartingPoints Paths
|
Ongoing Game 2 - Moves 121 To 200
"Eat this." - "Banzai!" - the early endgame
HolIgor: W200. Forced dnerra: B199: Whew, no I am afraid of spoiling either unkx80'x or Dieter's uncommented plans... Maybe this is what you intended, unkx80? unkx80: 197, atari. No comments. HolIgor: White 196 is a 2 point move. I cannot see a serious threat in the region of 195. Dieter: 195. No comments till after the game. DaveSigaty: W194 OK whatever was available elsewhere for 193 is still available for 195 :-) HolIgor: I belive that 194 has to be 1 point higher. This might give an extra point. dnerra: B193: Enough discussion -- let's keep it going :-) DieterVerhofstadt: The move I want to make for 193 is one I can't make without consulting the other "Blacks". If it were for me to play, I'd resign. If someone feels the need to go through to the end, then I'll play along. Note: I count the difference as being 10 points on the board. Bill: Go on and play if you want to, Dieter. It's a rengo, after all. :-) And it's a close game. HolIgor: White leads a little but not that much. Did you count the captured stones? Black captured 9 while white 2. I estimate white's lead as 2.5 points. I believe that such games are played to the end. Anyway, its rengo. Anybody can take an excersize to determine the largest yose move regardless of the score. Dieter: Oh, I forgot about the captured stones. That still makes my count 8.5 for White. OK, I'll play.
dnerra: Well, its certainly gotten very difficult for Black, but you never know... :-) Btw, looking back through the endgame so far I think there is a single outstanding move: W174 - excellent job HolIgor! This may have sealed victory for white already. DaveSigaty: W 192 - I do not know what is largest but I think that this is good enough. It is a large gote play that seals the win for W.
HolIgor: W190: This is 2.5 move. I don't see a larger move on the board. And, unkx80, I think that black needs all your IGS 1d* strength to win. unkx80: B189: I shall be a busybody a bit and make a move, to get the game going a bit. Basically I feel that there is a need to connect, but before connecting... HolIgor: W188 I feel a need to get a point in the center dnerra: B187: No choice.
DJ: B 185: I had reckoned this should be a good way to keep everything connected...
BTW, I tried to investigate a lot of variations stemming from playing B 181 at a, b or c, but I couldn't find anything nasty enough... HolIgor: Let's have some fun yet, ne? Kyu players are irresponsible. HolIgor: W182: A push. Bill: My sentiments exactly. :-) AvatarDJFlux (away from home...) Nobody plays, nobody invents, I'll take the burden to play a passive move that grabs points...
Nonny: (commenting) Very interesting, so far. I'd play but I don't want to lose the game for B, so I'm enjoying watching. HolIgor: W180. I play very solid. I think that making life by two groups would give too much to the opponent. dnerra: B179: I'll give it another try to get it going again :-) HolIgor: Isn't there any interest in finishing the game. It is a very close game. Both sides can win. HolIgor: W178: That's kind of obvious. dnerra: B177: Is it Black who has to come up with something now?
DJ Yeah, Dnerra! Come up!! With something!!! Bash'em!!!! With sparkling tesuji!!!!! HolIgor: W176. Other people playing for white here, Bill and James, registered their presence in the postings but did not make a move. Perhaps, it is already too boring. But I promised to play yose for white, so I jump. Bill: Gee, HolIgor, I was curious how you were going to follow up W 174. ;-) Besides, I played a lot of moves before that. AvatarDJFlux B175: Grunt! I said I wanna be in the records! HolIgor: W174. White has to stretch a little bit yet for a win. Consider this as a probe. What will be the reply, if any? DaveSigaty: I am not sure that I agree that W needs to stretch here; it seems to me that B has difficulty giving the komi now. But I like this move! It is a lot more interesting than anything that I was thinking of at this point. ARno: see also: OngoingGame2 - Move 174 dnerra: Thx for both the criticism and the support, Avatar. :) I'll play with the team myself with B173. :-)
Bill: W 172: Atari.
AvatarDJFlux 171: Well, I'll bite even deeper, and if I'll enter the records as the duffer who blew the game for black, at least I'll make history... ;-)
Bill: W170. Happy, happy, joy, joy! dnerra: B169 - yes, you will get your double sente.:)
BillSpight: W168. Bite this. ;-) DaveSigaty: B167, I'll bite. HolIgor: Trying to save a stone. dnerra: B165: Even an idiot... HolIgor: W 164: Atari! DaveSigaty: B163 How does the saying go, "even an idiot connects..."? Well as the other saying goes, "if the shoe fits, wear it". :-) HolIgor: It seems to me that W160 is half played. Please, finish the move, whoever did it. dnerra: B159: This seems bigger than preventing one of the monkey jumps. Bill: I think so, too. :-)
HolIgor: 156 White has to defend here. I have bad feeling about the decision I've taken with W152. I would like to discuss it more. I had to give up possible sente and a monkey jump, It was big. Dieter: With 155 I prepared for the crosscut. It's a rengo of course, but what do the others think ? HolIgor: I think that crosscut was an interesting option for black. Actually, when playing 132 I knew that the honte move would be at 157 but I could not supress the greed. If white loses that will be because of such small mistakes. Bill: Considering that White was playing catch-up, I think that enterprising might be a better word than greedy. Why play honte and lose?
dnerra: (I played B157): Sorry Dieter, I did not even realize
the possibility of the cross-cut. I was just contemplating the choice between B157 and B d. Hmm, can't white resist at 7 if
Black cross-cuts at e? (And continue at Wd if Black insists by playing at Bf.)
Bill: I think that, had White connected at move 152, the threatened monkey jump in the bottom right was bigger than W 152. Since the connection was gote, that is enough to show that it was bigger. Dieter: I think 152 and 154 were miai and that (because) their sum is bigger than 151 + 153. But I understand dnerra's feelings. Now, let's see if we can throw more stones into White's territory without following them up #:-7. DaveSigaty: I think that connecting against 151 was more interesting for W and would like to explore what would have happened - OGG2 - White Connects with 152 Bill Spight: W 154. Banzai!
dnerra: Well, I think Rengo-players are always very swifty :-)
I think I can at least explain B151: I tried to count carefully, and came to a different conclusion than HolIgor, namely that white has to defend at B153. (This is not to say that I'd be convinced I am right there :-) ). On the other hand, Wc might
as well be sente against the big black group.
AvatarDJFlux When I started to play go I read somewhere that strong players are swifty (or something like that). Here it seems to me that b is being somewhat overswifty... ;-) dnerra: Ah, you don't follow my orders either, HolIgor :-) HolIgor: I have to assume responsibility for the play. It is too big to be accepted silently. As far as I can tell the right side is 21 point for 2 moves. The left side is 7 points. All white has to do to stay even is to find a 4 point move. Discussion, please. HolIgor: This is just interesting. You can't decide between two points, so you propose white both of them for the right side :) One has to do some serious calculations. dnerra: B151: I still don't know whether a or b is better. So I leave it to someone else to decide :-). Also, maybe I now hit a sente point with my third try -- but I guess Bill will prove me wrong again :)) Bill: Actually, B 151 looks big to me. :-)
HolIgor: W 150. People recommend to estimate the score at least two times suring the game. I've never did it in the middle game or even at the start of yose. I am going to try. Please, help me with good advice. OG2W150TheScore Bill: W 148. A move I was wondering about for W 146. HolIgor: W146 was a difficult choice but I wanted to play it if nobody else plays. I believe that white does wonderfully. White's perspective territory here was an open skirt. I could not find any move that would defend from both sides. White had to play two gote moves to defend it. At the same time black's attack is gote. Now black can't stop because then white would take all territory with one move. But the game is still very close. Dieter: B147. Territory destroyed. DaveSigaty: W146 B can escape from one side or the other. This way looks better to me. W wants sente to play in the upper right. dnerra: Ok, then I can come back to B145. HolIgor: W144 - obvious. dnerra: B143 - let's see first how (if?) W wants to reply here.
Nonny: dnerra, I've seen the light. I believe :-) dnerra: Nonny, I think we have exchanged arguments. We won't force you to believe the group is worth more than 30pts. But its true :-) And I think Dieter and James well explained the meaning of B135. Nonny: Respectfully, dnerra, that doesn't make sense--first of all, the position we were discussing was after 135/136, so there are 9 black stones and white is now on the second line there too. Second, several have argued that black can survive anyway, even without first move in this area. In either case, white is going to have to continue to play stones in this region to try to capture black. Would a shodan truly think B135 was the correct move at the correct time? Dieter: Well, a shodan made it. It was a simple way to secure life in sente, making two points. If White doesn't answer, a follow-up at '136' is very big. If White answers, the group is now clearly alive - as others have explained. Maybe there are other ways to live in sente but 135 does not create damezumari: it actually relieved that group from it. Nonny: Dieter, I meant no disrespect by my comments and I appreciate you taking the time to explain to me. Thank you. Dieter: Please don't apologize. We are all senseis around here, including you. Thanks for questioning my move. dnerra: Nonny, its really more than 30 pts. Below I marked with x all points that will probably not become territory for white if black is alive. These are 14 pts, plus the 20 pts for capturing 10 black stones, plus a few points of territory that black would have made. Nonny: After 136, white is descended to the second line on both sides and black has nine stones here. There is no way that this represents "more than 30 points". 18 for the stones, yes, but there are not 12 more points on the side. And allowing white the eye-stealing tesuji is no big loss. If white plays it, black simply responds at b to make life. JamesA: 135 actually prevents white playing an eye-stealing tesuji later:
White plays at 1, and black can't answer at 'a'. Therefore, black 135 makes an eye in sente and ensures life for the group. I think it was a good move. You don't really need to worry about losing a liberty here if you make an eye as a result! Remember that damezumari refers to a shortage of liberties, not to any move that entails a loss of a liberty. The territory gained from killing the group would actually be more than 30 points. You have to remember that it isn't just the captured stones, but also the points that will be dame, or taken by black in the actual game. Every point that black would have made, and that white makes instead is worth 2 points (depending on counting method). Trust me, it's over 30 points. If white was able to kill with a move after 136, it would not be necessary to capture the stones and fill territory, as the surrounding white group is alive anyway. Nonny: B141. Doesn't 135 remove one liberty of the whole group? And it isn't 30 points, it's more like 25 or less as it stands. White has to fill its own territory to capture. A quibble? Let's see :) In addition, you think it is secure anyway. You are probably correct.
HolIgor: Ok, nobody plays so I continue. AnalysisOG140 contains the explanation of the reason of W138. dnerra: B139. Not even think about this move! :-) JamesA: To continue the discussion about the upper right group: I don't think white 136 is sente against the upper right group. How does white kill this group if black doesn't answer 136 (which he didn't)? Also, why is black 135 damezumari? Next point, black should not give up this top right group for sente. If white kills that group it will be worth around 30 points - there is nowhere that could compensate for a loss like that. Sometimes you just have to give way and allow your opponent sente. However, as I've already said, I don't think 136 does threaten to kill. Nonny: Let's discuss the UR black group. Black 135 (damezumari, by the way) forced 136 which is sente against the whole group. After this, black must defend at a or thereabouts to secure the life of this group, but alas, in gote. In addition, White still has the yose force at b. If black wants to play in this area the first move should be played at a to secure absolute life. While admittedly gote itself, black 135 at a would be one of those one-move perfect shape fixers that would, for example, allow black to descend at d in sente. Locally, 135 at a would then make subsequently playing the game's black 135 not only sente but would also make white's 136 gote, which black could ignore, keeping the yose c in mind. So, my argument is that black 135 is mistimed...we should end this sequence in sente, not in gote, even if you have to start with gote to do so. Therefore, because 137 at a would be gote, black should give up the entire group if sufficient compensation can be obtained elsewhere. This is what the sequence starting with black 137 sets to do. If you don't feel that the followup accomplishes this, then it will be I who have lost the game for black. HolIgor: 138: It seems to me that white can get several points here before defending. If I am wrong I lost the game for white. Nonny: 137: An absolutely forcing sequence starts which could cause white troubles. The key move in the sequence is the 8th (fourth move by white). HolIgor: 136: Defending at last. DieterVerhofstadt: 135 Eat this. BillSpight: W 134. Banzai! dnerra: 133. Maybe this time I hit a sente point? Dieter: 131; all my appraisal for White 128. Black should IMHO have attacked the lower side before playing 121. W128 is skillful defense while playing big yose. Maybe white can win after all ? dnerra: Although I am certainly not insisting that my B121 was right, I may point out that it may well be the case that both 121 and 128 were right (B121 seems larger than for W to connect around W122 with W128). Also, B cannot really expect to play first on both the lower side and the left side, can he?
AvatarDJFlux B129: As 125 was a forced answer, I feel entitled to play again... ;-) HolIgor: 128: I don't like to defend. StormCrow B127 -- W126 was atari, B127 captures the white stone previously at the marked point.
AvatarDJFlux B125 The more I play the more I feel hopeless at this game, and especially so at the yose... so I have one question. dnerra: B123. HolIgor: W122: Since black insists that this is a double sente. dnerra: B121: This seems to be a double sente point. This is a copy of the living page "Ongoing Game 2 - Moves 121 To 200" at Sensei's Library. (C) the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0. |