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TG53Black10Discus...

 

Teaching Game 53
   


mat: OK, here's my first teaching game online...

I'm somewhere around 7k. I've played some games against a 1k player with 4 stones and most of the time I lost (he doesn't give me many hints as he says he still want's to win...)

Dave, how many stones do you want to give me? I want to learn, so comments and hints are very welcome and so you might want to give me less handicap...

mat, when you say 7k, where is that - online (IGS, KGS, ...?) or over the board somewhere? I am 1k on IGS and 5d-6d "on the wood" in Japan. Dave

mat: I'm not very sure about my rank, but I estimated 7k from my games at go clubs in germany. I don't have experiance with IGS. I've just added 4 stones - if you want to give me more add them. A game with less stones than I actually would need would give you the chance to give me some useful hints... OK?

Dave OK, I am guessing that I would be on the order of 2d in Germany. I have set the board up at 2 stones to give you some problems to address from the start. At the same time we will give you a 50.5 point komi. This is something like another 4 stones advantage. One issue for you is how to think about and use the large komi. You might want to discuss a strategy first.


Moves 31-40

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

W 31 - Good luck! You may be trying too hard here (then again I may die :-) That's all for me today so read it out at your leisure. Dave

B 32 - Do I have a choice? I don't want you to cut at 'a' with atari, so I can't let you get B32, so I have to get it instead. I am weak at reading (the other player often chooses moves I didn't think of) so I like this sort of "mental shortcuts"...

I think you will continue with 'b' and so far I think I go on with 'c'

Unfortunately I will not have internet access during a journey that I start tomorrow. Maybe we manage one more move until I leave, then there is a break of 2 weeks. Sorry for that, I'm looking forward to continue.

Bill: Mat, that's twice already that you have indicated a lack of choice for your move. I suspect that your game would benefit from considering more choices for your plays. Even if a move looks obvious, you may profit from asking yourself where else you might play, both locally and over the whole board. :-)
mat: Thanks, bill, any advise is appreciated, I want to learn. However I don't know how to make use of this advise. You think I should consider tenuki more often? I remember that I made tenuki (other games) in situations where I shouldn't, so this is not a systematical error rather than a lack of insight. Can you name some principles upon to judge when to respond and when to tenuki?
As to the local alternatives: I thought about them, however my mind got somehow screwed up by trying to read out to the end. I don't know if I'm too lazy, probably I just need some more intuition (based on experience)? (I'm not bad at intuition outside of go).
Bill: Well, if you thought about alternatives, I guess I read too much into your remarks. :-) But in general, it seems to me that kyu players often miss good plays because they didn't even see them. They did not think about throwing stones away, they did not look for dual-purpose plays, they did not consider the whole board.
As for tenuki, I say, when in doubt, tenuki. Sure, you will make mistakes, but when in doubt, you are going to make mistakes anyway. The reason for my advice is psychological. Most people, myself included, tend to get overly involved in the local situation. To the extent that I have been able to find errors by pros, failing to tenuki is a common one. Even they are not immune. Besides, if tenuki is wrong, the refutation is likely to be impressive, whereas, if it is not, then the refutation just looks like the next big play, and the error may go unnoticed.

W 33 - I will play toward the corner. I am a little busy tonight with the family so I may not be able to play again if you answer. Why don't we stop here and you can take the situation away with you on your trip, think it over, and decide what looks good to you next? There is no hurry. See you when you get back. Dave

B 34 - I will defend the corner (internet is everywhere!) I think I might be able to stop you somehow if you go further up, so the lower side might be more important...

W 35 - I will descend here, I think it keeps more options open for me. Dave

B 36 - OK, tenuki (I'm home again) mat

W 37: Welcome back mat! How was the trip? Dave

thanks, the trip was great, we visited friends in the south of france who own a vineyard and a castle.

B 38: In this phase of the game I usually start to guess a lot. Should I have tried to connect 36 with other black stones on the right? should I make an invasion into the upper left corner / upper side? I don't know really how to judge the value of those moves...


[Diagram]
Diag.: Shape?

What do you think about the exchange in the bottom? Black is overconcentrated on the left, has peeped at a bamboo joint and even tried to cut it. As for White, he has made an empty triangle.
Real fights involve trade-offs. How do you assess these? -- Bill

mat: But I made tradeoffs - I gave white the corner while I built a wall around. I let the invading white stone have acces to the middle while I built a wall between the white "bamboo joint" and my moyo on the right. These tradeoffs seem reasonable for black. What else could I have achieved locally? Shall I thread to catch white in the middle? I doubt that this will work (I still can try later)
Another problem: A point that is big for you may not be big for me - I simply do not know enough about how to make use of moyos. Once a 1k player told me I'd play like "lucky jack" (title of a famous german story: jack is a foolish (but happy) young man who makes subsequent exchanges that finally end up with nothing). So I decided to stick to my strategy and go less for exchanges.
according to shape: what is so bad with the peeped bamboo? white's concentration is as high as black's - but - black is outside! Isn't that good?
Bill: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you had not made tradeoffs. :-) I intended to refer to the tradeoffs in shape. Each player made bad shape in the fight.

[Diagram]
Diag.: Better Black Shape

Instead of peeping and trying to cut a bamboo joint, the keima (marked) extends into the center and threatens White's group. White still has the empty triangle.
Both of these diagrams have the same net number of stones. Which is better for Black?

mat: computers are everywhere in the world, so here I am again... Bill, I think I must learn something from your shape-discussion, however I don't get the point: if I hadn't played B16, white would never have developed a bamboo joint, so why can I learn from your diagram?
Bill: At the time I said that B16 was dubious. So was B20. Shape provides a heuristic for judging the results.

Moves 21-30

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

W 21 - I will connect. However, you need not continue as below if you have changed your mind in the mean time (although it may speed things up it may also defeat the purpose of a teaching game). Dave (ps: Bill, I didn't have the nerve to claim the generic "Dave" for my very own. But since you did it for me what can I do except accept, thanks :-)

OK, I changed my mind. Normally I try not to follow the hints of others (although I read them carefully), since I want to learn rather than win. But B22 is "my" move. I may have chosen it anyway. Looking at the stones on the board is different from thinking over it ;-) However I think it is good for a teaching game to say what I have planned. So: I think you will connect at a (3) and I think I will connect at b (4). I'm a bit afraid of your possibility to move at b (4), I can't overlook what will happen then (probably I'd go to 'c')

W 23, B 24, W 25 - OK, let's play it out and see what happens. I will continue by attaching at 25 to see how you will react in teh corner. Dave

B 26 - I'm weak at josekis but that looks reasonable...

W 27 - One continuation

B 28 -

W 29 ...

W 30 ...


Moves 11-20

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

W 11 - I chose tengen partly as one of the key points between the W and B moyos under construction. However, I am also thinking about the usefulness in supressing/invading B's right and bottom as mentioned on IGS 5k Against Low Chinese.

B 12 - OK, I'll try to play wider. B 12 is good for both wings and as far as I can judge, it somehow makes B10 look better. Furthermore, it should help me in the center, too. I thought about playing (a) as it attacks white and makes my influence better, but I wasn't so sure if it would really be sente, so I chose B12 (B12 isn't sente either, but I feel that it is bigger)

I think 12 is an nice idea ('b' might be even nicer :-) I rate it B's best move of the game so far. After W 11 'a' is less interesting than before. I would probably answer but the benefit to B from the exchange would be more or less erased by 11.
unkx80: Personally, I would play 12 at k. I view 11 and k as some sort of miai.
JamesA: I don't think I would play B12 either. B10 was a relatively solid extension, but developing on a smaller scale than white. B12 continues to play in a moyo-competition style, and white gets the chance to reduce first. What about a play at 'z', for instance, to reduce white lightly whilst thinking about an invasion at 'y' or in the corner later? I certainly think black needs to take the initiative after W11.

W 13 - Let's see what you do with this. Of course I am trying to punish B 10 and the availability of the shoulder hit is one of the things that I didn't like about it. Dave

mat: You call it my best move so far? Is there a problem with B2 to B8? Well, I'm glad you liked B12.

Not a problem but there is no original thinking there = unrated! :-)

B 14 - I don't have much choice, have I? I'm not "brave" enough to tenuki and 'c' might give you the opportunity to push against my moyo in the lower left and at the same time locking up your huge moyo, so B 14 is the only move I can think of.

One problem is that 14 is overconcentrated in relation to B 4.
Bill: Indeed. One of the joys of the close extension is that you do not have to respond at B 14. :-)
Some alternative plays: c, 10, h, i. :-)

W 15 - trying to play quickly and lightly, looking at the center or the bottom depending on how you play. By the way, if I had played at 16, what would you have played? Dave

B 16 - OK, I will try to cut. To be honest, I don't know what I would have answered to W16, probably tenuki (when in doubt...) Is my overconcentration result of B10 or could I have played B14 elsewhere?

I think that a play around 'e' would have been an interesting idea against W16. I would have made myself a little heavy and you could expect to push into my moyo if I try to run. On the other hand you could solidify the right side if I had to live along the bottom. I think that a play around 'd' was worth considering against W13 originally or even an immediate cap around 'e'. B should not mind having W push against B10 (either along the top at 14 or downward at 'c' since there is no good way for B to develop this stone anyway. Dave
Bill: How about B 16 at e? Compare B 16 and B 18 with W 17 and W 19. Which stones are working? :-)

B 18 - as expected

W 19 - The normal solid connection would leave behind a B splitting play at 'e'. This 19 looks at the relationship with the stone on tengen. (It is bed time in Tokyo, you can choose your next play at your leisure. CU tomorrow!) Dave

B 20 - If you connect, I might play at f

unkx80: I would rather play at f directly, if I were you. Alternatively, g might be a better choice. =)
mat Hmmm, isn't 'f' gote? But the longer I think over it - g looks better, indeed. (However, it's too late...)
Bill: How about the peep at j?
mat: You mean B22 at 'j'? I thought over it, too and maybe I will change my mind ;-) But initially I havn't planned to continue with B22 at 'j' as it is sente (White could go between B22 and B20)
Bill: No, I meant B 20 at j. :-)



Moves 1-10

[Diagram]
Diag.: Komi 50.5 points

I start with 1 at mokuhazushi. It is an asymmetric move. In a two-stone game I expect that you will want to play first in the open corner so that I will then have the choice of playing again to exploit my first move. Dave

Hmm I've never played with that much komi. I think I should play just a little bit more defensive to make advantage of it - just as I would have done with more stones. I can't think of any more specific strategy right now (perhaps later). I have just read your page about mokuhazushi ... Anyway - as expected: I play in the open corner. I like the 4/4 point. I've got used to it in handicap games...Mat

Dave: You can't go wrong with the hoshi. As a young pro in Japan, Go Seigen played 7 two-stone games that I know of (mostly against Honinbo Shusai). He played B 2 above in every game :-)

W 3 - I'll approach the lower left. I think this direction relates more strongly to my first play than a similar play against the upper right. A quieter start would result from playing at 'a'. Both Honinbo Shusai and Hayashi Yutaro continued with 'a' after beginning with mokuhazushi against Go Seigen in the handicap games mentioned above. Against a 50-point komi, however, I will try something a little wider even if it is thinner. DaveSigaty

B4 Then I do what I mostly do in this situation... mat

W 5 - OK, I'll set up a framework on the left and wait to see what B will do with sente. This move has 3 elements in the present position:

  • It loosely links my stones at 1 and 3
  • It will work well if you play into the upper left corner and I build influence on the outside or try something nasty like the taisha joseki, and
  • It looks ahead to a play at 'b' on the lower side.

If you had chosen 'c' instead of 4 on the lower side, I might have chosen another move for 5 as one of the reasons above would be gone. In addition, B's scope on the lower side would also be less after 'c' so 5 would be less urgent I think. Dave

B 6 - I might have played in the upper left corner if you were less strong, but I feel I can do less wrong with B6. For a moment I thought about doing something to prevent b - but none of my ideas looked big enough. mat

W 7 - I continue to divide up the board between us. Dave

B 8 - me too... dividing isn't the worst thing with 50.5 komi - I hope...

W 9 - Two stubborn guys, each going his own way :-) Dave

B 10 - yes :-) Sure, this move is smaller than yours, but it makes me feel safer..

Dave B should not be thinking about safety. Most importantly because this is a teaching game. You should ask yourself, "how am I going to learn anything by playing it safe all the time and trying to eek out a win with my large komi?" I don't mean that you should play wildly but this is (hopefully :-) a good opportunity to play more aggressive moves, explain why you chose them, and receive feedback not only from me but all the other SL crowd who are hanging around looking over your shoulder right now.
B 10 is poorly positioned. It is true that it prevents W 'b' :-) but at the same time it is not well balanced with the lower right corner since it is too close to the lower left. Additionally, if W later plays 'd' and B answers at 'e' or if W invades directly at 'e' then B 10 will inevitably end up too close to the resulting B position.

Bill Spight: While I agree that B 10 does not work so well with Black's moyo on the right, I respectfully differ with Dave. I like it. :-)

Discussion of B 10 moved to TG53 Black 10 Discussion



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