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English Go Terms Discussion
I think that we should not use english terms in Go when there are so many good Japanese terms out there. Why say 'ladder' when we can say 'shicho', why say 'net' when we can say 'geta'. Even worse, why say 'turn at the end of stones' when 'hane' is so much easier? --MortenPahle, 13.11.00 While I agree that 'hane' is more convinient than the English phrase you propose, I think that using too many Japanese terms poses too high an entry barrier for aspiring Go students. Why say 'chuban' (which is rarely understood) instead of 'middle game'? There are only very few Japanese Go terms that don't have a nice counterpart in English, e.g. 'miai', 'atari', 'hane', 'aji'.
Maybe the use of non-english terms may confuse the english speking beginner. However, I think that, sooner or later (and normally when you read your first book) the beginner will see the 'foreign' terms anyway - and he will still have to learn to use them.
Does anyone know whether other languages have their own versions of Go-terms? (a) i have to agree with arno on the japanese vs. english topic. most of the beginners/weaker players i know are more familiar with the english terms. so lets keep it simple. (b) in german there are several translations of japanese terms such as:
i could even tell you that there is a german word for a snapback (=mausefalle), but i just don't know the japanese term (see (a)). :-) -- BIG M
The two terms that Big M mentions, exist in Dutch as well. As far as I know, they have been 'copied' from the same terms in chess. The term 'muizenval' exists in Dutch too, but I think that 'snap-back' would be familiar to a larger part of the Dutch players. Most other Dutch go terms are either translations from English, or more or less funny terms that are used to enliven a talk rather than to be maximally clear. I do know however a friend of mine who is trying to introduce the terms 'leeuwenbek' ('lion's mouth') and 'tijgerbek' ('tiger's mouth') for the shapes in this diagram, and there is also a rather common term 'sliert' (hard to translate, perhaps 'string' would be best) for a weak, eyeless group in an elongated, wall-like shape. Still, because much of the go literature here is in English, English terms (such as snap-back) are introduced in Dutch go terminology as well as Japanese ones. For a look at what Go terms are typically being used in Dutch, see TermsInDutchGoMagazine. By the way, the Japanese term for snap-back is 'uttegae'.
-- Andre Engels
(snap-back is 'utte gaeshi') IMHO, a lot depends on the native language. E.g. at our club we use Lithuanian, Russian and English in conversation due to the various nationalities of our players. I observed that the use of Japanese terms often depends on the language. E.g. we almost never use "geta" because all 3 languages offer a corresponding, easy usable word for it. OTOH, "opening" is used when we talk in English while we usually stick to "fuseki" in Lithuanian because this language doesn't offer a good counterpart for it. (Of course, there is a word for "opening" but its meaning doesn't exactly suit "fuseki" in our opinion.) As Arno pointed out, there are Japanese terms which cannot be adequately translated into one's own language (atari, miai, aji...). That's why every Go player comes to learn these necessary terms sooner or later. So why not learn a couple of words additionally to make conversation easier and more convenient? Of course, one shouldn't go too far with this. "Niken takabasami" is not something what one should really know. :) Also, many of the Go terms are difficult to understand even for Japanese people who don't know Go. Any Japanese beginner has to be explained what "atari", "joseki" and so on mean. So even Japanese often are in the same situation like we "outworlders". BTW I think that "shicho" would be rarely used in the Go world if people knew the exact Japanese pronounciation and would stick to it. Far too complicated for many westerners.
--Olaf "owl" Martens
I have found a wav file of the pronunciation of shicho on a website ( ![]() ![]()
--SifuEric
I have since I wrote the above heard two french versions of japanese terms used.
BTW - Olaf reminded me - check out the -- MortenPahle I just realized there is at least one important Dutch go term which I had mentioned yet: The 'bulky five' is called 'bijltje' (which means 'axelet') in Dutch. -- AndreEngels
:-) -- MortenPahle
There is a very good word list that translates Japanese go terms into Swedish: Compared to the wide use of Japanese terms in some English go books, we don't use Japanese terms at every opportunity in Sweden. For example, we say what corresponds to "two-space high pincer", not "niken takabasami", but may use either "hasami", the English word or the Swedish word for "pincer".
-- Arndt Jonasson
DaveSigaty: Another issue can often be seen when large groups of kibitzers are discussing high d* games on IGS. Many Chinese and Korean players are confused by the use of Japanese terms and have to ask what they mean. Naturally they know Go well but have never studied it in either Japanese or in English. I think that in such a situation people have a better chance of understanding the use of 'opening' than they do of 'fuseki'. Therefore I think that keeping the English terms (especially those made up of "every day" words) can make English a more useful international communication tool about Go. Strange enough, Nobody here has ever mentioned Chinese terms though Go was born there thousands of years ago. --Winddrinker
Winddrinker makes an interesting point here. We tend to see the widespread use of English as an exponent of the political and economical supremacy of the anglosaxon world - at least I do. So we could think it only fair to use original Go terminology as much as possible. But then again, the fact that it has come to us in Japanese, is a manifestation of Japanese political and economical supremacy in the east the past centuries.
As for Chinese terms, I know a number of them coz I learnt the game of Go ('WeiQi' in Chinese) in the Chinese medium. It is only much later when I came into English Go literature when I knew some of the English (or is it Japanese in disguise?) terms for Go. I must admit that I don't understand Japanese - so I don't know many of the Japanese terms. However, the main obstacle in putting Chinese characters on the Internet is that most PCs around the world don't support the Chinese language, including those in my country, which has a dominant Chinese population. I can put Chinese characters on this page if I wanted to, but it would appear as rubbish on most people's browsers. For interested people, I will put a (random) list of terms in 'HanYu PinYin', i.e. English characters that approximates the pronunciation of the Chinese characters. hane - 'ban' ko - 'jie' ko threat - 'jie cai' capturing race, semeai - 'dui sha' bamboo joint - 'shuang' crane's nest - 'wu gui bu chu tou' knight's move - 'xiao fei' life and death - 'si huo' throw-in - 'pu' For those who want to find out more, you can try reading the Chinese web pages - but you browser needs to support the displaying of Chinese characters first! To do so, go to any search engine and search for the word 'weiqi'. Good luck! --unkx80 In general, I like translation, as long as it can be done simply and clearly. "Atsui" means thick, "karui" means light. Fine. But "tsume" means packing, better not translate. But rendering go terms into English has also caused confusion. "Nozoki" means peek or peep, but somebody did not like the connotation of sex peep shows and peeping Toms, and translated it as "poke". "Mannen" means ten thousand years, but "thousand year ko" has entered English go terminology. A friend of mine who was learning go thought that there was a difference between a thousand year ko and a ten thousand year ko. "Nidan" means two-step. But a nidan bane is sometimes called a double hane, which has led to some confusion. And a one-move approach ko (itte yose ko) is sometimes called a two-step ko, while a two-step ko (nidan ko) is sometimes called something else. There would not be such confusion if the terms had been left untranslated. ;-) -- Bill Spight This is a copy of the living page "English Go Terms Discussion" at Sensei's Library. (C) the Authors, published under the OpenContent License V1.0. |