Dieter: page name change discussion (2007-08-15 18:12) [#3797]

Kawabata Yasunari -> Yasunari Kawabata

• ViciousMan: Kawabata is known for being a novelist who sometimes dabbled in Go, NOT for being a Go player. His books are published with the Western order anyway.
• DrStraw: Why would you want to rename the page to have his name in the wrong order?
• Velobici: I have created an alias in hope of forestalling the madness ;)
  • ViciousMan: In most scenarios, names are switched for modern-day Japanese individuals in English. That is the status quo, albiet it's not universal. See: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-5008557-8908860?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Yasunari+Kawabata&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go - He is published with that name order in most English editions. Oxford University Press seems to be the dissenting publisher in this case. Yes, even the Japanese reverse naming orders on their own websites; I.E. the Japanese Prime Minister does this here: http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/index-e.html

• • ViciousMan: HOWEVER, in the Go world people generally refer to Japanese Go players by family name first, so this convention is generally what is used here. However, Kawabata is not primairly a Go player, but an author.
  • The issue, by the way, is discussed a bit at Japanese Name

Velobici: ViciousMan has written his take on the issue at Japanese Name. All the edits of that page but for one are his. In particular, one can find there the edict Sensei's Library will use the western order (given name, then family name) when discussing most Hikaru no Go characters (characters from modern day Japan). as promulgated by ViciousMan. As a result of sustained effort we now have 14 aliases for Hikaru.

• • ViciousMan Much of the information I posted originally came from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_name - The Hikaru no Go naming order, though, did originate from me... it's only for HnG, though. I cannot lay claim to the idea of most sources using Western order for most modern individuals - Most English-language newspapers (even English-language newspapers published in Japan) use Western order; look at the English-language Mainichi Daily News, for instance. http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20061125p2a00m0na018000c.html is an example article.
  • ViciousMan: By the way, for the few people with articles (I.E. non-Go players) who are listed in Western order, the Japanese and the Eastern naming order are present (i.e. Takeshi Obata has "Takeshi Obata (小畑 健 Obata Takeshi, born February 11, 1969)" - As for how multiple naming order patterns are handled, see Umezawa Yukari.
  • ViciousMan: By the way, I also created Chinese name.

unkx80: How about this. For the very first mention of a name, capitalize the surname, e.g. SHINDO Hikaru. This capitalization stuff is a standard and is also used on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_name page mentioned by Viciousman. As for the variants... just alias them out.

As an Asian, I personally prefer seeing names in their natural order, but in a Wiki that consists of predominantly Western contributors, I shall not insist on the name ordering used.

blubb: Even as a European, I feel the same: proper names generally should remain in original state, unless officially changed. Popular order or spelling variants may deserve alias pages.

By distinguishing e. g. whether someone is known more as go player than as an author or the other way around, we certainly could set up an amazing work creation scheme for the few who are willing to enforce such rules. About the use beyond, I'm not so sure, though.

ViciousMan: I do agree that Pro Go players should remain in Japanese order, since this is what the Anglophone Go community prefers. The Capitalization idea to disambiguate family names (I.E. Hikaru SHINDO likes KOBAYASHI Koichi) sounds like a good solution, UNkX80 :)

ViciousMan: By the way, I also like to use footnotes to explain naming order conventions. E.G. Hikaru Omake Background mentions that the five modern-day HnG characters had their orders switched, while the five historical real-life people have their names in Eastern order (as per the U.S./Canadian manga).