Ongoing Game 4 / Discussion

Sub-page of OngoingGame4

Table of diagrams
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 171 - 180
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 171 - 180
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 171 - 180
Ongoing Game 4 - move 169
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 161 - 170
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 151 - 160
Is this playable?
My expected continuation
Ouch...
How to capture without ko.
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 121 - 130
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 127 - 136
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 137 - 139
Ongoing Game 4 - black keeps sente
Ongoing Game 4 - black keeps sente
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 119
White resign after move 105? - or try for ko
ko? What ko?
Outside play... (5 white moves, 4 black)
Inside play... (3 black moves, 2 white)
Ongoing Game 4
Tsumego of the day: Black to live. ;-)
Ongoing Game 4
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 81 - 90
Ongoing Game 4
Ongoing Game 4
Ongoing Game 4
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 81 - 90
m Ongoing Game 4 - Move 85
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 81 - 90
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 71 - 80
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 61 - 70
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 51 - 60
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves to 58
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 51 - 60
A possibility?
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 41 - 50
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 41 - 50
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 31 - 40
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 31 - 40
Ongoing Game 4 - Move 39
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 29
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 29
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 11 - 20
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 1 - 10

kb: A quick note - if no one else minds, I will be submitting this game to the [ext] GTL for review after it is finished. It has been a pretty good game!

fractic: That sounds like a good idea. How about including this discussion too.

Dave: As a GTL reviewer, I do not agree. If the players and other contributors to SL are not willing/able to review this game adequately themselves, just forget it. The game is a joint effort, the review should be too.

kb: I'm not usually one to argue with a stronger player, but with reviews I think the value of a third-party review is very important, especially one of a star reviewer, 5+ dan player like Eric Vella or Reid Augustin.
I was also not implying that we wouldn't be self-reviewing, as we really have been the entire game.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 171 - 180  

Dieter: having arrived at a position where I would resign, I resign from the Black squad. We can only win through an opponent's blunder.

ap: how would you score the game currently? how much is white ahead?

unkx80: Without taking komi into account, White is easily more than 10 points ahead. And that's a conservative estimate.

Dieter: Yes, adding komi and averaging out the three stones in atari I count a 20- advantage.

fractic: I wouldn't mind resigning at this point.

Herman Hiddema: a quick scan of the diagrams shows that there are 4 main players on the black side, ap, fractic, Dieter and unkx80, with a few moves here and there from others (gauss, golearner, Bill, TedErnst). I would say that if the four main players all agree on resigning, then we end the game here and review, ok?

ap: ok with me.

unkx80: I'd like to resign too. kb, how about you? I think you made more moves than me.

Herman Hiddema d'oh! How could I have missed kb in my list? :-)

| kb: How dare you! :)


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 171 - 180  

ThorAvaTahr: I don't think white+circle should be played so lightly, it destroys some aji and gains very little points, or is the aji not worth much anymore after the exchange of W2 for black+circle?

Anyway, certainly black won't play the 1 point gote move at white+circle anytime soon.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 171 - 180  

ap: Is white+circle really sente? I couldn't find a non-refutable damaging line for white if black tenuki.

ThorAvaTahr: see 2-8 (i think yes ;) )

ap: oh yes. thanks!

dieter: so,

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - move 169  

this B9 is better endgame?

MrTenuki: Would B9 at a be better, though, since White has W10 as a follow-up move?


Positional Judgement after move 160

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 161 - 170  

Tapir: An attempt... white lost a move by playing both marked stones. Connecting instead of capture lost some points, but the second move should have been somewhere else. Still I count 86 + 6,5 points for white and 80 for black, so to say a substantial lead for white - which can be lost easily in the endgame however.


MrTenuki: Sure enough, the real game shows that I totally forgot about the fact that Black could make a ko. So, as much as I hate to post again, I can't help but to wonder if White had a better move here.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 151 - 160  

It seems to me that White either has to ignore any ko threat of Black's (thus allowing Black to kill the upper left corner), or let Black capture the 4 stones and connect out. But what if White lets Black win the ko "for free"?

[Diagram]
Is this playable?  

Can't White live in gote?

Tapir: In the given diagram, I would say yes. But Black doesn't need to play 155. Black at a, White at 155, Black at b is ko for life, isn't it? Isn't white thin enough everywhere for black to take profit somewhere? (Killing either the upper left, upper right or cutting somewhere in the left center or the right edge?)

Dieter: Now that the ko is finished (and should actually have been done so by capturing instead of connecting) I can state that Black is IMO thinner than White on the whole board, i.o.w. White is komaster, moreover since White will have local threats to live. If Black wins the ko it will be at the cost of something like the lower left junk stones and all in all this looks big enough for White to win. Still, the game as it is looks an uphill struggle for Black, but not nearly as hopeless as a few moves ago.


MrTenuki (KGS 3k): I expected Black's move 143 to be played this way. Then Black can connect, and White can save all stones in gote:

[Diagram]
My expected continuation  


But Black took a liberty in a different manner in the real game. As a result, it seems that White could punish the "mistake":

[Diagram]
Ouch...  

And the game looks over to my SDK eyes. If Black really cannot connect back the marked stones due to move 143, would the White team mind about allowing Black to take back the move?

ThorAvaTahr: I wouldn't mind, it seems a very sad ending like this.

LukeNine45: No complaints here.

Herman Hiddema: I would prefer not to, it seems dubious to label this error as somehow "big enough" to warrant retraction. Seems to me that this is what you get when you play a rengo with many players of all levels, and that's part of the fun. I would prefer to start a new game (if black wants to resign after this), because playing endgame in a rengo like this does not seem to be very popular (lately we've seen longer breaks, and pleas for moves when none were forthcoming).

MrTenuki: Well, I assumed that kb, who played move 143, saw something that I didn't see, since he's 2d on KGS (4-5 stonges stronger than I am). That's why I'm posting the position on the discussion page-- in hopes for dan-level commentary on a possible refutation for move 144 :-S

kb: Actually, it was very late, and so I just played an obvious? looking move to get the game moving faster, and didn't read it out very well. See what carelessness can get you... Black should resign at this point.

[Diagram]
How to capture without ko.  

unkx80: If my reading serves me right, this is how White can capture without ko.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 121 - 130  

Herman Hiddema: I had expected 27 at a...


kb: Forgive me if I'm being too direct. B7, B9 - ??? How about...

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 127 - 136  
[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 137 - 139  

kb: 12 points.

Tapir: In gote, are not a, b, c all at least the same size?

fractic: Yes sente was my concern.

kb: Right, of course that sequence was better. What was I on this morning...

unkx80: By saying "close off territory in sente", I guess you confused everybody. Heh.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - black keeps sente  

fractic: This way black keeps sente while the result is similar to what kb suggested.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - black keeps sente  

fractic: White might tenuki after B4 but then black has a follow up at a. Black might even omit B4 and take sente.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 119  

unkx80: B119 is a move I regret after playing. I should have just played B1 to get sente, and then play elsewhere.


[Diagram]
White resign after move 105? - or try for ko  

Tapir: I wouldn't make this without consulting the other players on the white side... but 101 was huge, 102 and 104 in my opinion lost points and aji. Black is way ahead... (maybe a dan player may add a bit more positional judgement) I would probably resign here.

Dieter: Too early. White has a nice territory in the lower left. With the bits on the rest of the board and komi, it is worth trying to match Black's territory, which is not that impressive either.

LukeNine45: 102 isn't so bad if white couldn't cut off the black stones to begin with, which I couldn't find a move to do. 104 is bad if it doesn't work, but I'm not at all sure it doesn't. But I agree that white is behind and if 104 doesn't work, I really don't see how we can catch up (which is why I played 104). But maybe black isn't as far ahead as it looks, in which case that was bad....

Tapir: After 104 there may be a ko... in my eyes at least. However, I don't believe this is favorable for white, because black is thick everywhere and can push around white in the middle.

LukeNine45: That's what I read, too, though Dieter prevented it with a move I didn't think about. Aren't picnic kos always good? If a ko happened it might be for the life of the black dragon...

Tapir: I don't know whether this ko is winnable (see Lose a ko to win the game) but even playing 110 on the outside in sente is worth something.

[Diagram]
ko? What ko?  

fractic: I can't find the ko you guys are talking about. After W1 black has B2 and he will win without any ko. And if W1 at B2 then black has a tesuji at a and can get a and B1 in sente and will win again.

kb: The kind of ko you describe is called a phantom ko. ;)

:Tapir: I should try to read deeper than 3 moves next time... but even 110 on the outside in sente isn't worth so much, since this area is still open from the other side.

Dieter: I accepted the local loss in exchange for W1 not being sente.
Tapir: The difference between outside and inside - without considering the reduction we achieved now - is 11 points. Don't ask me about miai counting...

kb: In reply, I think this is a (somewhat) interesting endgame situation, and hopefully Bill can shed some light on the miai value of the endgame around this location (c.f. the last couple of diagrams). It's also pedagogically apt here, since many (all) of us can benefit from accurate counting.

[Diagram]
Outside play... (5 white moves, 4 black)  
[Diagram]
Inside play... (3 black moves, 2 white)  

MrTenuki: (Spoiler Alert) The following is my idea behind move 98.

(W1 = Move 98, etc. Apparently, move numbers starting at 100 are not yet supported.)

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4  

gauss: Playing both B2 and B4 here looks troublesome for black, but I think B2 here should have been played before a.

unkx80: Yes, at least B2 should be played. Part of the reason I made B97 (the cut) was an attempt to mitigate the aji at b.

[Diagram]
Tsumego of the day: Black to live. ;-)  

Dieter: I added a few stones. But I really think we're spoiling stuff.

Tapir: Indeed, you are. I wonder whether you are telling your plans to your opponents on board as well. "Eh, I'll try to cut there later, don't mind." Maybe we should add this to bad habits. :)

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4  

fractic: How about this?


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 81 - 90  

MrTenuki: The commentary for W86 is "cut first, think later." Well, White didn't really cut in the real game, but is cutting at a actually playable or even necessary? (The following three diagrams are my variations.)

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4  

Obviously, this is bad for White.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4  

Free ponnuki for black?

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4  

Is this playable?

kb: I'm going to hold off on commentary until the next few moves are done. There's far too much that might be given away now.


malcolm: I've just realised I haven't been respecting SL etiquette by playing several moves in a row. I do apologise to everyone!

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 81 - 90  

[Diagram]
m Ongoing Game 4 - Move 85  

unkx80: I have no complaint about B85, although I might have reserved it for the attachment at a. But I thought, would it be possible for Black cut at B1 and B3?


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 81 - 90  


Black: 51
White: 57 + 6.5 = 63.5
Conclusion: Black needs to... (kyu players fill in the blank)

LukeNine45: But if black gets a it's almost dead even, no? And Black has sente, so that seems likely...

Tapir: Since defending at a and defending the upper right corner are counted for white despite being gote - while black a is sente, but not counted for black... I suspect wishful counting.

LukeNine45: I don't know if you can count it up like this yet; The black group on top doesn't seems likely to get what is marked-- either getting more than that or almost nothing depending on who plays up there first. And how much will white give up to make eyes or connect that group on the left center? But kb is stronger than me so who knows.

| kb: Exactly - even though the top result won't come out like this, we don't know who will play there first. Therefore we count it 'as is'. If one player plays there first, presumably the other will play at a different location first, therefore it's even.

Tapir: Btw, the invading group now looks like running on dame points... is this the result of W76 (my move). Or was this unavoidable?

LukeNine45: I will admit to not being a fan of W76. But as to whether this was avoidable, I can't say. And I don't know what would have been better, either.

Jamal: W72 was too far and did not take the weakness into account. 1 space lower would have created a base.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 71 - 80  

Bill: Black's invasion starting with black+circle must be deemed a failure. black+circle is mochikomi, Black has made bad shape, and White has made a base on the left side.

LukeNine45: Wow, that surprises me. I was just thinking that white had a lot of stones in a little bit of danger and is behind because something will get into serious trouble eventually.

Tapir: W70 is the type of move I usually miss in my games...

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 61 - 70  

unkx80: Shape wise, I suggest this B3, a light move. Later, a and b are more or less miai.

fractic: I personally had B3 one space lower in mind when I played B1.

unkx80: I guess, both B3 moves are similar in spirit. =)


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 51 - 60  

MrTenuki (KGS 3k): Interestingly, Bill Spight played the move suggested by GnuGo as a reduction move ;-) Now the question becomes: a or b (or somewhere else)? Obviously, Following the special strategy per BQM 23 is probably a bad idea, as white would be overconcentrated. Attacking B9 is an option, but remember that White has a defect at c.

Tapir: Now a is played, and we can discuss what would have happened after b. I played a with the intention to make W58 work. After b I imagined W58 will do less work restricting black but will come under attack itself. I did not consider any other moves.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves to 58  

Jamal: Can someone tell me how white's lower right can live after this sequence?

LukeNine45: I don't know that white *can* live after that sequence. Hopefully we won't have to try! :)

Tapir: White shouldn't play this sequence. b, d, h are somewhat submissive and his group is weakened more and more. But in the middle of the sequence white tenukies to f to let black cut his group apart.

LukeNine45: Yes, exactly.



[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 51 - 60  

MrTenuki (KGS 3k): As of now, I'm not playing in this game. However, part of me wonders whether White can afford to tenuki now instead of protecting the cutting point at a with W58 (at somewhere around b, for example).

LukeNine45: As I see it, B57 has about a ten point follow up (cutting at a). A big point for white ought to be worth more than that.

[Diagram]
A possibility?  

If so, should Black consider this variation? The problem I see with this variation is that White still has the option of playing tenuki with W6. So, is there a sequence that can allow Black to retain sente?

fractic: I think it's best to play B57 directly. I think cutting first is aji-keshi.



[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 41 - 50  

Andy Pierce: I agree that a move at the top is urgent for black now, and that B47 at circle is correct shape; that being said, I was considering B47 as in this diagram. Ordinarily this would be problematic, but in the presence of black+circle, I was unable to find a satisfactory continuation for white. Any thoughts?

Tapir: A large kneight's move and a two space extension in front of a strengthened white group looks not so good. White should be able to split somewhere... that is what my 3k instinct tells me.

Andy Pierce: show me :)

unkx80: My own intuition tells me either a or b. But I have been feeling very tired these few days, and I have not made the required position judgement, so I didn't play.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 41 - 50  

Jamal: Secure territory right now Black has 2+20+13=35 and white has 5+11+6.5=22.5. I really feel s18 is a vital point... even as a kikashi. If Black responds, then tenuki and white has gained in sente.

LukeNine45: But Black's weak group seems significantly weaker than white's-- I think this makes the game very even (I think Black made a mistake by not playing unkx80's 39 which has allowed white to catch up). And while s18 (a above) is large, it is almost certainly gote right now and it seems there are still big fuseki points to be taken. I would be curious to hear from a high dan on this, though perhaps only after it has been played or made irrelevant...

unkx80: White a feels like gote to me, especially when B41, B43 has connected the two groups. Actually, I like W46, which is a reverse-sente honte move. =)

kb: Black has lost considerably after the last couple of moves. Letting White get so strong with the top right group is a waste of black+circle, with very little gained in return. More importantly, the next Black move is a hard question of positional judgment.

Tapir: I agree... but from White's perspective I feel it is quite difficult to attack profitably. Or more exactly, I don't know how :)


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 31 - 40  

kb: unkx80, I feel that B7 is a thank you move. Now Black seems to need to defend on the right around B9, allowing White to attack Black in the center. Can you explain your logic? White is not really that heavy here. Now the options of cutting with a double hane or table shape are gone...

unkx80: I intended to play another move for B9. Should I play it as well? But how best to cut with B7 and B9, I am not too sure either. One of the consideration is that the white+circle stone, or even the white+circle stone plus the W8 stone, is very light and can be easily be sacrificed. Frankly, I am not too familiar with the two-space jump. Let's discuss!

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 31 - 40  

unkx80: Now that B39 has been played, I shall state that this is the sequence I envisioned. I may be wrong though... and sorry for not playing the moves you guys were expecting! =P


kb: Your W2 may be too kind. I don't see a clear refutation for W2 below.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Move 39  

Herman Hiddema: I don't really see the value of W2. What id black simply stretches to a. The black+circle group is unassailable and white is still weak.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 29  

unkx80: I think that either B29 or B31 should have jumped out at B1 instead. This is a direction issue. What do you guys think?

Andy Pierce: B31 at circle was my move. Here's the thinking: because black played the footsweep at black+square, there is a weakness left behind at square. Black would like to induce white to let him fix this weakness in sente. The idea then behind B31 at circle is to force white to run downwards into the center. Then b can get in a forcing move to patch his weakness by threatening white's running group. Additionally, a splitting attack by B (for example at B31 in the diagram) will be more effective when the two weak white groups are closer together. In other words, I considered B31 immediately in the figure to be too early.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 29  

unkx80: So you mean letting White connect like this is a good idea? Of course, the B1 and the W2 exchange may be omitted, and other moves for W4 and W6 is possible. On the other hand, I thought that the ponnuki on the left side may be utilized if White does run towards the left side.

Regarding the footsweep of black+circle, I thought that it is an urgent point. If the footsweep is played elsewhere, then the White group will settle with a base with a, and Black would have lost a target for attack.

Andy Pierce: Not that I know anything, but I think this is fine for black. B got secure territory, W's connection is weak, B didn't hurt himself on the top too much, and it is B's sente.

unkx80: Style difference, perhaps? =) Even though I call myself a dan player, I always feel that I hardly know anything, especially assessing opening to middle-game positions.

Andy Pierce: Yes, it's probably a style difference. Personally, I play in the kyu-style which seems to be popular these days. :) Would you like to make move 47 for black? I have an idea for it, but I think it's your turn if you'd like it to be.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24  

Jeff: To my DDK eyes, it looks like W22 establishes a base, but in gote. Is that correct? Is it that urgent that it have a base?


LukeNine45: These are the continuations I know, and I don't like them so I haven't made a move:

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24  

White runs or struggles to live locally without strengthening black?

Tapir: As the only white player playing in the lower right corner until now :) ... I don't like the result either but black has played two stones more in this area since white tenukied to the pincer... what i dislike is that white is nearly nowhere stronger than black despite playing high approaches to two corners which aimed at influence.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24  

White takes the corner but black's wall seems too good.

MrTenuki: Since white didn't respond to the pincer, I would probably tenuki again after black+circle (see 3-4 point high approach, two-space high pincer, tenuki, keima-- the only difference is that the pincer is one line farther) and leave the aji of living small in the corner later.


kb: W1 is not the best of choices, because Black cramps White's base with black+circle.

LukeNine45: Does this mean I'm not crazy?

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24  


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24  

Ryzours What about white 24 here? I don't dare play it because it might cause a rapid loss if it's a mistake, but it seems to me white can handle his group whatever black replies.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 22 - 24  

kb: Black just replies with B4. If White descends to c, then Black plays at a, aiming at b. If White a then Black c. It is possible but Black is in an even better position.


[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 11 - 20  

W16 Jamal: While W16 is not Joseki, it seems to make sense in the overall board position. It works well with the top side. The drawback is that this move gives up the corner, a big corner to black instead of white having a big corner. B16 seemed a better extension from the crosscut.

LukeNine45: While I'm by no means certain it's a good move, by my reading it doesn't completely give up the corner. Let's see what happens...

fractic: Kogo's Joseki Dictionary only mentions a as joseki. However it ends with a white corner and W12 ends up on a silly position.

[Diagram]
Ongoing Game 4 - Moves 1 - 10  

W8 PurpleHaze: High because the other white stones are low, tenuki because W6 was wrong, B7 one space lower makes the Magic Sword fail with the ladder breaker at B5.

Tapir: I feel the judgement on W6 is quite harsh. As if there is only one line white can chose after the two-space high pincer, which doesn't work now because of the black ladder breaker.

kb: Why are we criticizing each other's moves? I thought these games are where we learned something. By the way, it is very difficult to call a kakari a wrong move without a good reason. I myself thought W6 was a fine move.

Herman Hiddema: There is nothing really wrong with W6. Had B7 been at a, then white attaching at b would have been questionable, because in that case the ladder is very important.


Ongoing Game 4 / Discussion last edited by HermanHiddema on April 22, 2008 - 14:19
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