China/ Discussion

(anon) I wonder, if go's origin is not in China, then what's the possible country? Japan? It seems when Japanese introduced go to western people they didn't tell the western people the true history. Perhaps they have also manufactured the myth of the Japanese invention of go just like they manufactured the myth that they didn't learn most go knowledge from China but developed all go skills and theories themselves, and the myth that there were no strong go players in China after Tang dynasty. Have them?

Dieter: That's not why Charles made his remark on the parent page. No one explicitly doubts that Go originated in China. Charles writes that we do not know it, by lack of pure evidence. Yes the most ancient relics have been found in China. The earliest mentions of the game also are in Chinese writings. These are facts (at least I am told so). These facts strongly indicate that Go originated in China, but the latter is not a fact.

I don't mean to nitpick but then we hardly know origin of anything, say, wheel. We don't know wheel's origin, we don't know who invented alphabet.

I don't know much about the archeology status of this issue, but do we really hear any archeologist mentioned any place other than China as a possible origin of go seriously?

Suppose I know Chinese learned to make wheel from, say, Mesopotamia thousands years ago. But when I introduced wheel to other people I inteded to give them the impression that I don't know the origin of wheel, and the impression that there were only a few primitive form wheels in Mesopotamia. Then if someone got angry and call me a liar should I be very surprised?

(Incidentally I found wheel was possibly invented by Chinese independently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel#History_of_the_wheel So the above is not a good example.)

It's a fine line between fact and conjecture backed up by a lot of evidence. Certainly not worth arguing about. No one really doubts Go originated in China but I guess no one will object that we state Archeologic evidence and literature gives us all reason to believe that Go originated In China.

As a sidenote, there has been a tendency lately here to track back to Japanese domination and release one's anger about it. This is a neutral Wiki, in English. There is no need to do that.

Seriously, I am neutral too.

Bob McGuigan: When Charles said that we don't know whether go originated in China I think he was referring to the possibility of an origin somewhere else not being totally ruled out. For example maybe the origin was in Tibet, though some might argue that Tibet is/was part of China. I wonder whether the situation could be covered by saying that the earliest concrete archeological or historical evidence is from China? The story of the game being invented by an emperor to provide training for his son seems to me to be entirely too much of a myth to be believed. Anyhow, there seems ample reason to believe that the game came to Korea and to Japan via China. Whether it came to China from somewhere else, we don't know.

Velobici: How about stating:

1. we know the game reached Japan and Korea from China.
2. It is currently believed that the game originated in China. (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that.)
3. we do not have evidence of the game in other country that preceeds the evidence from China.

kokiri - or simply the earliest recorded evidence of Go (wei chi) is in China, beyond that, its origins remain lost in the mysteries of time.

Velobici: sounds good to me! :)